Bible study rules for public schools ...

Bible study rules for public schools proposed

There are 143021 comments on the The Courier-Journal story from Feb 10, 2010, titled Bible study rules for public schools proposed. In it, The Courier-Journal reports that:

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Courier-Journal.

You are simply wrong

Beattyville, KY

#98289 Apr 3, 2013
that guy wrote:
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes
You have fallen into the trap of Pride. Namely, you have wrongly assumed that Humans are the purpose of creation.
Repucheta

Haverhill, MA

#98290 Apr 3, 2013
Really?

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98291 Apr 3, 2013
You are simply wrong wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I'm pointing out the obvious flaw in your statement. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it illogical.
Also, no, you try to prove that God doesn't exist.
Right. Something being illogical makes it illogical. Try this:

1. God knows the future.

2. We make free choices.

3. ERROR: Therefore God does/does not know the future???

If you accept 1 and 2, you are left with a problem at 3. It isn't a matter of me not understanding it. It is a matter of the idea being logically flawed.

I am being as rational and neutral about it as possible. But a fact is a fact.

Regarding proof of God, the onus of proof always rests with the person making the positive claim. That is why we do not have trials to prove our innocence. We have trials to prove our guilt.

Do you understand these basic ideas?
You are simply wrong

Beattyville, KY

#98292 Apr 3, 2013
TruthIs wrote:
<quoted text>
I have already.
Just because I translate it in a different way (FAR from "literal") does NOT mean I have not read it.
So actually, in my opinion (and actually in FACT) You could not be more WRONG (yup- plunking in that word just to poke right back at ya)
in your assumptions, because I've read it cover to cover.
I just see no need to obsess and froth and make more of the ugly parts than what they're actually intended to represent.
MY opinion.
You're certainly welcome to your negative fixations though, just don't expect everyone to share them likeminded, because they won't. Ever.
That's just reality.
You have translated the Bible? You are literate in Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic , Ancient Greek and Classical Latin?

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98293 Apr 3, 2013
You know what wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe it was as simple as a high altitude cloud cover. Or maybe it was an ice sphere that separated our sky from space.
It did take 40 days and 40 nights for it to come down. if it was an ice sphere it may have deteriorated from one spot and gradually fell in the form of rain.
Did you miss the part about the fact that such an environment would have been like living in an oven under enough weight to crush you to death? It is scientifically flawed from top to bottom. It is a dumb idea promoted to sell another dumb idea.
Repucheta

Haverhill, MA

#98294 Apr 3, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
No repentance is a little more than that
I am flabbergasted, annoyed ,dumfounded,hemorroic and tomorrow is my wedding. I am not wise I used to crack jokes in prostibules. Any advice?
You are simply wrong

Beattyville, KY

#98295 Apr 3, 2013
TruthIs wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh bother- talk about FICKLE in a coulple of sentences!!!!!!!!!!
What do you have against using intellect, logic and rationality?
Shame on you!!!!!
lol
You are the one ignoring science and logic and therefore ignoring intellect. The fossil record you alluded to predates human history by about 65 million years. You can not use it to say anything about humans.
You are simply wrong

Beattyville, KY

#98296 Apr 3, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
Differential calculus? From a logical standpoint, everything is wrong with it.
You sir, are an idiot.
No, you were simply looking in the mirror

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98297 Apr 3, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
Asking "what if?" is important...and the possible answers are far from irrelevant.
<quoted text>
How?
<quoted text>
Oh, no...not the same. Not the same at all. Your kids, as Yiago pointed out, still could choose differently. You don't "know" what they will choose. Your god, however, supposedly does know. There can be no other outcome...otherwise he isn't omniscient. And if he isn't omniscient it's hard to argue that he's omnipotent.
On the other hand, if he is omniscient(and omnipotent), then all of your decisions are already known...which means they could only have one outcome, and that means your "free will" is an illusion.
Exactly. But Christian theology (any theology, really) is not that concerned with logic. It is only the apologists who seem to be concerned with the fact that their beliefs are irrational.

I think it is a sign that a person wants to base their worldview on truth. Truth is important to some people. Like do whut. I think truth is important to him. I don't consider him to be an a**hat like a lot of these others. But I think he might recognize that his beliefs do not stand up very well to intense scrutiny because he isn't pulling out the silly rebuttals nor is he reducing himself to just insults and Jesus-isms.

This whole idea of mystery is where the problem lies. The heart of Christianity contains a mystery: how can Jesus be 100% man and 100% God at the same time? And where does this "Holy Ghost" fit into it? The Trinity is just a strange concept. Theologians have wrestled with it for centuries. It IS a logical contradiction. You cannot be three mutually exclusive things at the same time. Yet that is what God, in Christianity, must be or else it all falls apart.

So defending it in a rational argument is not going to be possible without appealing to this idea of "mystery". This notion of fuzzy logic, impossible to explain, known only to the mind of the God you have to believe in before you can even accept it at all.
You are simply wrong

Beattyville, KY

#98298 Apr 3, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
Right. Something being illogical makes it illogical. Try this:
1. God knows the future.
2. We make free choices.
3. ERROR: Therefore God does/does not know the future???
If you accept 1 and 2, you are left with a problem at 3. It isn't a matter of me not understanding it. It is a matter of the idea being logically flawed.
I am being as rational and neutral about it as possible. But a fact is a fact.
Regarding proof of God, the onus of proof always rests with the person making the positive claim. That is why we do not have trials to prove our innocence. We have trials to prove our guilt.
Do you understand these basic ideas?
You have clearly never studied logic. I've already explained it. You just don't get it. It is a waste of my time to say more to you about it. Think of God as a time traveler. Maybe you will understand it that way?

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98299 Apr 3, 2013
happy wrote:
<quoted text>
No reasoning with these type of closed minds. They know it all..
God certainly does not approve of "ANYONE being RAPED". That shows how ignorant you are. But ignorance can change, stupidity.. Well, you're stuck with it...
If God doesn't approve of it why doesn't he stop it from happening? Is he incapable of preventing a little girl from being raped? If so, why worship him?

There was a moment on an atheist show called The Atheist Experience where the host said the difference between her and God is that she would try to stop a child rapist whereas God would just watch and then punish the rapist later (unless he gets saved).

So why doesn't got stop little kids from being raped and murdered?

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98300 Apr 3, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>Asking "what if?" is important...and the possible answers are far from irrelevant.

do whut wrote, "<quoted text>
I believe He did know they would choose to eat of the fruit, but He still left it up to them to choose. I think it's a fine line between omniscience and predestination. I don't understand it fully but I can distinguish between the two.
"

How?
do whut wrote, "<quoted text>
Like if I give my kids the choice between broccoli and ice cream, I know which ones will choose which food because I have learned what they desire, because I have spent time with them and learned their behaviors. It doesn't mean I'm omniscient, nor that I have predestined what they will choose.
"

Oh, no...not the same. Not the same at all. Your kids, as Yiago pointed out, still could choose differently. You don't "know" what they will choose. Your god, however, supposedly does know. There can be no other outcome...otherwise he isn't omniscient. And if he isn't omniscient it's hard to argue that he's omnipotent.
On the other hand, if he is omniscient(and omnipotent), then all of your decisions are already known...which means they could only have one outcome, and that means your "free will" is an illusion.
As I've said before, I don't know that He is omniscient or omnipotent. We don't know.
My opinion is that He is more complicated than we can comprehend. So my simple explanations of my fallible opinion could be way off.
But I think that He has to follow certain rules of righteousness just as He expects us to do. If He were to step outside those laws of the Holy Priesthood, He would cease to be God.
We make covenants with God. He asks us to make this two way promise and as we keep our end of the covenant, He is bound to bless us with the promised blessing that He promised us.
So with this thought process and the former that you mentioned, maybe He is not omniscient or omnipotent, but we are still subject to Him and He is far more powerful and wise than we.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98301 Apr 3, 2013
Repucheta wrote:
<quoted text>I am flabbergasted, annoyed ,dumfounded,hemorroic and tomorrow is my wedding. I am not wise I used to crack jokes in prostibules. Any advice?
None at all. Sorry. Good luck

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98302 Apr 3, 2013
You are simply wrong wrote:
<quoted text>You have clearly never studied logic. I've already explained it. You just don't get it. It is a waste of my time to say more to you about it. Think of God as a time traveler. Maybe you will understand it that way?
Sure, OK. God is a time traveler. He gets in his God Delorian and zips ahead in time, seeing the entire stretch of human existence. Then he zips back in time to watch it unfold.

If we *truly* have free will then the events that God watches unfold will not occur exactly as they did when he zipped ahead in time. Therefore God does not know the future. If they happen exactly as they did when he zipped ahead then free will does not exist and we are determined to do what we do.

If anyone lacks an understanding of basic logic it is not me.

Now, back to my question. Do you or do you not understand the flaw in your logic?

Look at it another way. If Ben knows Jane then Ben cannot also NOT know Jane. These are mutually exclusive states of being. Ben either knows Jane or Ben does not know Jane.

God either knows what we will do or he does not know what we will do. If he knows what we will do then we are not free to choose. It must be this way, logically. It is not my opinion, it is the necessary rules of logic.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#98303 Apr 3, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
As I've said before, I don't know that He is omniscient or omnipotent. We don't know.
My opinion is that He is more complicated than we can comprehend. So my simple explanations of my fallible opinion could be way off.
But I think that He has to follow certain rules of righteousness just as He expects us to do. If He were to step outside those laws of the Holy Priesthood, He would cease to be God.
We make covenants with God. He asks us to make this two way promise and as we keep our end of the covenant, He is bound to bless us with the promised blessing that He promised us.
So with this thought process and the former that you mentioned, maybe He is not omniscient or omnipotent, but we are still subject to Him and He is far more powerful and wise than we.
That leaves the possibility that there are other, more powerful beings in the universe. If so, why choose this one, limited being to worship?

I confess, you are the first Christian I have ever encountered who claims that God is fallible. Dangerous territory. It means the Bible is also fallible. Then you are left in the awkward position of using your human brain to figure out which parts are good and which are bad.

But ballsy move, dude.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98304 Apr 3, 2013
You are simply wrong wrote:
<quoted text>You have clearly never studied logic. I've already explained it. You just don't get it. It is a waste of my time to say more to you about it. Think of God as a time traveler. Maybe you will understand it that way?
The mechanics of his supposed omniscience is irrelevant to the argument. You'll have to develop better red herrings.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98305 Apr 3, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
...
But I think that He has to follow certain rules of righteousness just as He expects us to do. If He were to step outside those laws of the Holy Priesthood, He would cease to be God...
Then he answers to someone else? Your god has a god? How do you make this fit with your belief that your god is the "Alpha and the Omega"?
Curiouser and curiouser...
GWB

Roseville, CA

#98306 Apr 3, 2013
conclusion wrote:
<quoted text>
Just as you and I will die,all people will die,but God gave them the chance to be saved not only from death,but from the flood itself. God gave the message through Noah that the world was going to be flooded but the people laughed and mocked him,and did not build an ark like Noah did for they did not believe. They chose to die rather than believe God and be rescued . Just as you chose death and hell rather than believe .I'll take that as a "yes " .

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98307 Apr 3, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly. But Christian theology (any theology, really) is not that concerned with logic. It is only the apologists who seem to be concerned with the fact that their beliefs are irrational.
I think it is a sign that a person wants to base their worldview on truth. Truth is important to some people. Like do whut. I think truth is important to him. I don't consider him to be an a**hat like a lot of these others. But I think he might recognize that his beliefs do not stand up very well to intense scrutiny because he isn't pulling out the silly rebuttals nor is he reducing himself to just insults and Jesus-isms.
This whole idea of mystery is where the problem lies. The heart of Christianity contains a mystery: how can Jesus be 100% man and 100% God at the same time? And where does this "Holy Ghost" fit into it? The Trinity is just a strange concept. Theologians have wrestled with it for centuries. It IS a logical contradiction. You cannot be three mutually exclusive things at the same time. Yet that is what God, in Christianity, must be or else it all falls apart.
So defending it in a rational argument is not going to be possible without appealing to this idea of "mystery". This notion of fuzzy logic, impossible to explain, known only to the mind of the God you have to believe in before you can even accept it at all.
I agree, I have to give him credit for at least trying. It's a sign that beneath the brainwashed layers, a rational mind exists and is trying to make it's way to the surface.
Most just throw out prayers, or threats of fire and brimstone, or deflections...

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#98308 Apr 3, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>Exactly. But Christian theology (any theology, really) is not that concerned with logic. It is only the apologists who seem to be concerned with the fact that their beliefs are irrational.

I think it is a sign that a person wants to base their worldview on truth. Truth is important to some people. Like do whut. I think truth is important to him. I don't consider him to be an a**hat like a lot of these others. But I think he might recognize that his beliefs do not stand up very well to intense scrutiny because he isn't pulling out the silly rebuttals nor is he reducing himself to just insults and Jesus-isms.

This whole idea of mystery is where the problem lies. The heart of Christianity contains a mystery: how can Jesus be 100% man and 100% God at the same time? And where does this "Holy Ghost" fit into it? The Trinity is just a strange concept. Theologians have wrestled with it for centuries. It IS a logical contradiction. You cannot be three mutually exclusive things at the same time. Yet that is what God, in Christianity, must be or else it all falls apart.

So defending it in a rational argument is not going to be possible without appealing to this idea of "mystery". This notion of fuzzy logic, impossible to explain, known only to the mind of the God you have to believe in before you can even accept it at all.
Thank you. I enjoy this topic and you guys respectfully debating makes it more enjoyable.

As for the trinity. I believe this was something invented by Constantine's council. I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate entities. The first two having bodies of flesh and bone, and the latter is a spirit.

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