Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 131,438

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

Full Story

“I'll think about it.”

Since: Nov 07

central Florida

#92185 Dec 4, 2012
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
"No way of thinking or doing, however ancient, can be trusted without proof." - Henry David Thoreau
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - JOHN F. KENNEDY
"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend." - Henri Bergson
"The important thing is not to stop questioning." - Albert Einstein
Very nice. Here are two of my favorites...

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." Anais Nin
(This one seems particularly apt for religious folks since their "gods" reflect themselves.)

“I'll think about it.”

Since: Nov 07

central Florida

#92186 Dec 4, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
The only people written about in real time were kings by their historians... You seem to think they had Facebook back then.... Yes lots of historians Roman, Greek and Jewish wrote of Jesus but it really doesn't matter anyway... The message no matter how hard it's been fought against has prevailed... Not bad for a poor Jewish carpenter huh?
If some guy was indeed going around walking on water, parting the Red Sea, and raising people from the dead, you would think that might get a mention in the local historians' tomes, wouldn't you?

It didn't happen. Those are purely the myths of uneducated, superstitious people.

“Speaker of Mountain Wisdom....”

Since: Jan 10

http://www.panoramio.com/user/

#92187 Dec 4, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
The only people written about in real time were kings by their historians... You seem to think they had Facebook back then.... Yes lots of historians Roman, Greek and Jewish wrote of Jesus but it really doesn't matter anyway... The message no matter how hard it's been fought against has prevailed... Not bad for a poor Jewish carpenter huh?
Go to Israel... Walk to any of the dozens of archaeological digs.. In Every Site you will find paintings, graffiti, pottery, Mosaics and assorted objects with pictures of everyday events, grain counts, names, places, where to get a beer, where to get laid, what to do where to go and whose doing who... All dating to the years around the birth said to be Jesus until after the time he is said to have died... There are Many writings from the time of Christ that speak of Gladiatorial games, Roman soldiers, and many Individual Citizens... Yet Not One note, not one mention, not a painting, not a scribble on a wall... Until Years after his life by a guy that was attempting to gain power within a new religious movement...

I have no doubt that a guy that today is called Jesus went around preaching some... But if the later stories that hyped him and added ever increasing Claims of greater Super Powers were in the slightest True there would be people running around making pots, writing on walls, making frescoes, tiling mosaics and being written of at least as much as the local gladiators and hookers....
galeru

Winchester, KY

#92188 Dec 4, 2012
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide me with One Historic Document from the time of Jesus that mentions him... A document written 50 years after he was said to have lived is not a historic document that verifies he did... What I can say is that on walls I can show you graffiti on where to find a brothel, writing telling us what grains were harvested, who was in power, what sports guys were hits with the crowds.... These right in the very towns Jesus was said to hang out... But with a guy turning wine into water, walking on water, healing the blind and all the other things we are told he did and No One wrote "Jesus was here" on a wall, no one fired a clay pot with his deeds on it... During his Life Time No one made a mention of him or his deeds... It's only in writings dating years after his death we find any writing that even mention him... Now if you have a link to a Document written about his that can be verified to date to his lifetime I would love to see it... And so would every religious scholar on earth...
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/In...

http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_4...
chrysophylax

Winchester, KY

#92189 Dec 4, 2012
Satanic Priest wrote:
<quoted text>No, there is not one document stating that. There are writings that mention real places, just like Lee Childs Jack Reacher novels do.
In fact the fictional character jesus was not written about until 300 years past the time he was supposed to live.
I can wrrite a story right now about Faries and mention NY, CA. FL
notice in the tractates that stoning is mention; which isn't allowed under roman custom. so they hung the man, who possibly was trained in samadhi

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/In...

http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_4...

“Speaker of Mountain Wisdom....”

Since: Jan 10

http://www.panoramio.com/user/

#92190 Dec 4, 2012
galeru wrote:
"Tyndale House (where I work) recently acquired one of the 400 facsimiles of the Munich Talmud in a hotly contested New York auction. This is the earliest full manuscript Talmud, penned in approximately 1342. Very few manuscripts of the Talmud survived the ravages of time and persecutions, and they are particularly important because they
contain material censored out of the printed editions, most of which concerned Jesus."

“Speaker of Mountain Wisdom....”

Since: Jan 10

http://www.panoramio.com/user/

#92191 Dec 4, 2012
chrysophylax wrote:
<quoted text>
notice in the tractates that stoning is mention; which isn't allowed under roman custom. so they hung the man, who possibly was trained in samadhi
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/In...
http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_4...
Notice that it says it was pinned 1200 years after the events mentioned?..... Now do you happen to have a link to the Original Writings that were written during the events claimed? Those are what would be Historical Documents during the time frame in question....

Since: Feb 12

El Dorado Hills, CA

#92192 Dec 4, 2012
chrysophylax wrote:
<quoted text>
notice in the tractates that stoning is mention; which isn't allowed under roman custom. so they hung the man, who possibly was trained in samadhi
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/In...
http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_4...
McKinsey is a published biblical scholar whose works are consistantly of high quality.

By Dennis McKinsey

The first comment worthy of note is found in Sanhedrin 43a of the Talmud, which states,

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (The Munich manuscript adds the Nasarean) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried,'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.... Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him (Deut. 13:9)? With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government (or royalty, i.e., influential). Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.

Although difficult to imagine, this anemic passage is a reference to Jesus, according to some commentators. Reliance upon passages as weak as this can't help but dissipate respect for apologetic scholarship. Obvious inadequacies are:

(1) It says Yeshu, not Jesus.

(2) Even if Yeshu and Jesus were identical words, it was not an unusual name. On the contrary, it appears rather frequently in ancient Jewish literature. Josephus records the following out of 28 high priests in the 107 years from Herod to the destruction of Jerusalem: Jesus, son of Phabet; Jesus, son of Damneus; Jesus, son of Gamaliel; Jesus, son of Sapphias; Jesus son of Thebuthus.

(3) Jesus was crucified, not hanged.
(4) Jesus was not stoned, at least not according to the biblical record.

(5) The New Testament says nothing about a herald going forth for forty days before the execution occurred.
(6) Jesus had no connection with the government. At least nothing within the Gospels would lead one to believe that he lived among royalty or the influential class.

(7) Nowhere in the New Testament was Jesus charged with sorcery or leading Israel astray. The New Testament record tells of three accusations against Jesus:(a) blasphemy,(b) claiming to be the Son of God, and (c) assuming the role of King of the Jews. But he was never charged with practicing sorcery nor of leading Israel astray. Any attempt to apply this part of the Talmud to Jesus is doomed to failure.

http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id4.html
knucker

Winchester, KY

#92193 Dec 4, 2012
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
"Tyndale House (where I work) recently acquired one of the 400 facsimiles of the Munich Talmud in a hotly contested New York auction. This is the earliest full manuscript Talmud, penned in approximately 1342. Very few manuscripts of the Talmud survived the ravages of time and persecutions, and they are particularly important because they
contain material censored out of the printed editions, most of which concerned Jesus."
you're posting what was already contained in the original; so what?

you now have a problem with jewish resources confirming some christian history?
smok wawelski

Winchester, KY

#92194 Dec 4, 2012
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
Notice that it says it was pinned 1200 years after the events mentioned?..... Now do you happen to have a link to the Original Writings that were written during the events claimed? Those are what would be Historical Documents during the time frame in question....
the talmud was transmitted orally for centuries.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14...

The history of the origin of the Talmud is the same as that of the Mishnah—a tradition, transmitted orally for centuries, was finally cast into definite literary form, although from the moment in which the Talmud became the chief subject of study in the academies it had a double existence, and was accordingly, in its final stage, redacted in two different forms.
tiamat

Winchester, KY

#92195 Dec 4, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
McKinsey is a published biblical scholar whose works are consistantly of high quality.
By Dennis McKinsey
The first comment worthy of note is found in Sanhedrin 43a of the Talmud, which states,
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (The Munich manuscript adds the Nasarean) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried,'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.... Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him (Deut. 13:9)? With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government (or royalty, i.e., influential). Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.
Although difficult to imagine, this anemic passage is a reference to Jesus, according to some commentators. Reliance upon passages as weak as this can't help but dissipate respect for apologetic scholarship. Obvious inadequacies are:
(1) It says Yeshu, not Jesus.
(2) Even if Yeshu and Jesus were identical words, it was not an unusual name. On the contrary, it appears rather frequently in ancient Jewish literature. Josephus records the following out of 28 high priests in the 107 years from Herod to the destruction of Jerusalem: Jesus, son of Phabet; Jesus, son of Damneus; Jesus, son of Gamaliel; Jesus, son of Sapphias; Jesus son of Thebuthus.
(3) Jesus was crucified, not hanged.
(4) Jesus was not stoned, at least not according to the biblical record.
(5) The New Testament says nothing about a herald going forth for forty days before the execution occurred.
(6) Jesus had no connection with the government. At least nothing within the Gospels would lead one to believe that he lived among royalty or the influential class.
(7) Nowhere in the New Testament was Jesus charged with sorcery or leading Israel astray. The New Testament record tells of three accusations against Jesus:(a) blasphemy,(b) claiming to be the Son of God, and (c) assuming the role of King of the Jews. But he was never charged with practicing sorcery nor of leading Israel astray. Any attempt to apply this part of the Talmud to Jesus is doomed to failure.
http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id4.html
yeshua is the same as jesus. jesus is the anglicized version of yeshua

furthermore all roman crucifixions were hangings, and nailing was not always incorporated into the crucifixion.

http://www.theopedia.com/Crucifixion

the hanging would have sufficed given the requirement of a rebellious son as mentioned in

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

which is a reminder of deut 21

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

“Speaker of Mountain Wisdom....”

Since: Jan 10

http://www.panoramio.com/user/

#92197 Dec 4, 2012
smok wawelski wrote:
<quoted text>the talmud was transmitted orally for centuries.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14...
The history of the origin of the Talmud is the same as that of the Mishnah—a tradition, transmitted orally for centuries, was finally cast into definite literary form, although from the moment in which the Talmud became the chief subject of study in the academies it had a double existence, and was accordingly, in its final stage, redacted in two different forms.
Let me make my statement again for the hard of understanding....

"Please provide me with One Historic Document from the time of Jesus that mentions him... "

I know it's tough, I know it's annoying ... But A Oral Tradition, A 1300 year later writing, And 50 year later writing... do not "One Historic Document from the time of Jesus" make.... If you would like I can provide you links to graffiti on whose the best gladiator or where to get laid... and all the other things I mentioned but then again I'm not making the claim that a guy can walk on water and turn water to wine while raising the dead, curing the blind and in general being the Super Hero of the time...

There was a Oral Tradition that lasted 1000's (Longer than Christianity) of years that a bunch of giant greek Gods sat on a mountain and tossed lighting bolts on mere mortals.... I don't think that happened either....
jipjika m

Winchester, KY

#92198 Dec 4, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
McKinsey is a published biblical scholar whose works are consistantly of high quality.
By Dennis McKinsey
The first comment worthy of note is found in Sanhedrin 43a of the Talmud, which states,
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (The Munich manuscript adds the Nasarean) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried,'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.... Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him (Deut. 13:9)? With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government (or royalty, i.e., influential). Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.
Although difficult to imagine, this anemic passage is a reference to Jesus, according to some commentators. Reliance upon passages as weak as this can't help but dissipate respect for apologetic scholarship. Obvious inadequacies are:
(1) It says Yeshu, not Jesus.
(2) Even if Yeshu and Jesus were identical words, it was not an unusual name. On the contrary, it appears rather frequently in ancient Jewish literature. Josephus records the following out of 28 high priests in the 107 years from Herod to the destruction of Jerusalem: Jesus, son of Phabet; Jesus, son of Damneus; Jesus, son of Gamaliel; Jesus, son of Sapphias; Jesus son of Thebuthus.
(3) Jesus was crucified, not hanged.
(4) Jesus was not stoned, at least not according to the biblical record.
(5) The New Testament says nothing about a herald going forth for forty days before the execution occurred.
(6) Jesus had no connection with the government. At least nothing within the Gospels would lead one to believe that he lived among royalty or the influential class.
(7) Nowhere in the New Testament was Jesus charged with sorcery or leading Israel astray. The New Testament record tells of three accusations against Jesus:(a) blasphemy,(b) claiming to be the Son of God, and (c) assuming the role of King of the Jews. But he was never charged with practicing sorcery nor of leading Israel astray. Any attempt to apply this part of the Talmud to Jesus is doomed to failure.
http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id4.html
addressing number 7

a. claiming to be the son of god was blasphemy, or christ = christened; which meant he was the king because in ancient times the king was annointed on the forehead with oil. this signified the king. in ecclesiastes the term is signified by the use of preacher capitalized.

b. using the Name of names was idolatry because he was claiming to be god

c. already shown in a & b

the sorcery alone could be attributed to raising the dead and/or consorting with spirits.
unktehi

Winchester, KY

#92199 Dec 4, 2012
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide me with One Historic Document from the time of Jesus that mentions him... A document written 50 years after he was said to have lived is not a historic document that verifies he did... What I can say is that on walls I can show you graffiti on where to find a brothel, writing telling us what grains were harvested, who was in power, what sports guys were hits with the crowds.... These right in the very towns Jesus was said to hang out... But with a guy turning wine into water, walking on water, healing the blind and all the other things we are told he did and No One wrote "Jesus was here" on a wall, no one fired a clay pot with his deeds on it... During his Life Time No one made a mention of him or his deeds... It's only in writings dating years after his death we find any writing that even mention him... Now if you have a link to a Document written about his that can be verified to date to his lifetime I would love to see it... And so would every religious scholar on earth...
that isn't unusual given Buddha really didn't write down his own teachings nor did anyone until long after his demise.

his(isha's) own teachings would have been oral as the bible implies.
lagarfljotsormur inn

Winchester, KY

#92200 Dec 4, 2012
Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me make my statement again for the hard of understanding....
"Please provide me with One Historic Document from the time of Jesus that mentions him... "
I know it's tough, I know it's annoying ... But A Oral Tradition, A 1300 year later writing, And 50 year later writing... do not "One Historic Document from the time of Jesus" make.... If you would like I can provide you links to graffiti on whose the best gladiator or where to get laid... and all the other things I mentioned but then again I'm not making the claim that a guy can walk on water and turn water to wine while raising the dead, curing the blind and in general being the Super Hero of the time...
There was a Oral Tradition that lasted 1000's (Longer than Christianity) of years that a bunch of giant greek Gods sat on a mountain and tossed lighting bolts on mere mortals.... I don't think that happened either....
you're attempting to imply that one culture would exactly follow another cultures customs and practices. they wouldn't; also it is well known that in the mystery religions of the west, there is little known information. again oral tradition was the only means of passing on such wisdom. it wasn't for the profane.

so knowing who was who wasn't important in such societies

Since: Feb 12

El Dorado Hills, CA

#92201 Dec 4, 2012
jipjika m wrote:
<quoted text>addressing number 7
a. claiming to be the son of god was blasphemy, or christ = christened; which meant he was the king because in ancient times the king was annointed on the forehead with oil. this signified the king. in ecclesiastes the term is signified by the use of preacher capitalized.
b. using the Name of names was idolatry because he was claiming to be god
c. already shown in a & b
the sorcery alone could be attributed to raising the dead and/or consorting with spirits.
So, you're still not getting the point, scholars disagree with your claims and the dating is not even close as the coptic greek.

Translation of the Bible From Greek into Coptic (Circa 100 CE – 250 CE)

The copitics did not believe in a trinity but that Jesus was a god or son of god. So do you now believe the trinity doctine is false because the coptic greek outdates your evidence? If so then you need to buy the Jehovah Witness bible.
Hiintcabiit

Winchester, KY

#92202 Dec 4, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you're still not getting the point, scholars disagree with your claims and the dating is not even close as the coptic greek.
scholars in all scientific fields disagree, disavow, diss all the time.
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>Translation of the Bible From Greek into Coptic (Circa 100 CE – 250 CE)
The copitics did not believe in a trinity but that Jesus was a god or son of god.
would you care to post which coptics?

http://www.coptic.net/prayers/StBasilLiturgy....
O Father and Son and Holy Spirit

even the hindus and the greeks speak of the trinity.

the thrice great hermes for instance.

or maybe you would find this group as pertinent as coptics

http://www.gnosis.org/thomasbook/ch16.html

fyi, i'm not a christian as has been explained to you.
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>So do you now believe the trinity doctine is false because the coptic greek outdates your evidence? If so then you need to buy the Jehovah Witness bible.
the coptics are egyptian. even the egyptian speaks of the Father(osiris), the Mother/Spirit(isis), and horus(the son).
orochi

Winchester, KY

#92203 Dec 4, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you're still not getting the point, scholars disagree with your claims and the dating is not even close as the coptic greek.
Translation of the Bible From Greek into Coptic (Circa 100 CE – 250 CE)
The copitics did not believe in a trinity but that Jesus was a god or son of god. So do you now believe the trinity doctine is false because the coptic greek outdates your evidence? If so then you need to buy the Jehovah Witness bible.
the trinity in coptic orthodoxy.

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Oriental-Ortho...
olobit

Winchester, KY

#92204 Dec 4, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you're still not getting the point, scholars disagree with your claims and the dating is not even close as the coptic greek.
Translation of the Bible From Greek into Coptic (Circa 100 CE – 250 CE)
The copitics did not believe in a trinity but that Jesus was a god or son of god. So do you now believe the trinity doctine is false because the coptic greek outdates your evidence? If so then you need to buy the Jehovah Witness bible.
two parts of the triparte of the trinity

energy cannot be destroyed. it simply changes form

or if you prefer

e = mc2

Since: Feb 12

El Dorado Hills, CA

#92205 Dec 4, 2012
Hiintcabiit wrote:
<quoted text>scholars in all scientific fields disagree, disavow, diss all the time.
<quoted text>would you care to post which coptics?
http://www.coptic.net/prayers/StBasilLiturgy....
O Father and Son and Holy Spirit
even the hindus and the greeks speak of the trinity.
the thrice great hermes for instance.
or maybe you would find this group as pertinent as coptics
http://www.gnosis.org/thomasbook/ch16.html
fyi, i'm not a christian as has been explained to you.
<quoted text>the coptics are egyptian. even the egyptian speaks of the Father(osiris), the Mother/Spirit(isis), and horus(the son).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius

The New Catholic Encyclopedia. 1967. New York: McGraw-Hill
Book Co. Vol. 1. Arianism, by V.C. Declercq.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia. 1967. New York: McGraw-Hill
Book Co. Vol. 8. St. Lucian of Antioch, by P. W. Harkins.

Davis S.J., Leo D. 1987. The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787):
Their History and Theology. Wilmington: Michael Glazier, Inc.

Guitton, Jean. 1965. Great Heresies and Church Councils. New York:
Harper and Row.

Herbermann, Charles G., Edward A. Pace, Conde B. Pallen,
Thomas J. Shahan, John J. Wynne, eds. 1913. The Catholic
Encyclopedia. New York: The Encyclopedia Press. Vol. 1,
Arianism, by William Barry.

Herbermann, Charles G., Edward A. Pace, Conde B. Pallen,
Thomas J. Shahan, John J. Wynne, eds. 1913. The Catholic
Encyclopedia. New York: The Encyclopedia Press. Vol. 11,
Councils of Nicaea, by H. Leclercq.

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