Refuting the Church of Christ view of...

Refuting the Church of Christ view of Baptism

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X-factor

Martinsville, VA

#1 May 7, 2010
I fear that many members in the church of Christ are trusting in repentance and baptism, rather than Christ. We repent on the account of Jesus and his work and a hate for our sin; we are baptized on the account of Jesus work on the cross, the place He remitted sins. If we are looking unto water baptism as the agency whereby we are remitted of sin, we grossly fail to comprehend the work of Jesus on the cross. Doing so, we have turned the grace of God into a system or works whereby our obedience to baptism is efficacious and thus we preach another Gospel.

Remission of sins was a ONCE AND FOR ALL event. The book of Hebrews spells this out clearly. Jesus Blood is not like bull and goats which could NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS. We do not appropriate the work of Christ in Baptism. We are justified “by faith in Hs blood.”

In Acts 2, Peter declared to them the Gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection. They was cut to their hearts and ask what they needed to do about their obvious faith in Christ as their sacrifice for sin. They clearly understood that Jesus remitted sin though His death and was raised that they might live. They knew sin was remitted on the cross, they knew Jesus shed blood not covered their sin, but took it away. Rom. 5:8-10, says: "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him: for if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." This verse is very deep and clearly states that we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (when we were enemies) and it says how we are justified – by His blood. Jesus removed the wall between man and God, now we are justified by faith in the Blood which reconciled us to God when we were yet sinners. The church of Christ are so hung up on Baptism, that they do not even know when we were reconciled to God. By Jesus death we were reconciled while we were enemies while we were yet sinners.

Peter seeing that they had saving faith in the shed blood of Jesus, said; repent and be baptized on the account of remission of sins. The Greek word EIS points like a finger in a particular direction, and in this case, it pointed back to the sacrifice of Jesus – the One who shed His blood for remission of sins. They responded in faith towards the work of Christ. They were not responding as one seeking Jesus blood in baptism, but responding in faith TOWARDS the Gospel.

When Jesus shed his Blood, was it for remission of sins? YES!

Did those in Acts 2 understand that remission of sins took place via the work of Christ through His sacrifice? YES

They clearly understood that Jesus Blood remitted their sins. They clearly understood that Jesus paid their sin debt in full. They clearly understood that animal sacrifices were no longer needed since Jesus Blood TOOK AWAY SIN. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World. No longer does man need to shed blood of an animal to atone for his sins, Jesus done that on the cross. Sin was dealt with ONCE AND FOR ALL. Now those who have faith in His Blood are Justified. What does this faith do? It repents and it submits to baptism. Why? On the account of remission of sins – the Gospel.

Logically they repented and were baptized on the account of this understanding. They were not seeking to contact Jesus Blood in the water, they were faithfully responding to the Gospel.
X-factor

Martinsville, VA

#2 May 7, 2010
Matthew 26:28, Jesus says that his blood "is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Clearly, Jesus wants his disciples to make a theological connection between his coming death on the Cross and their forgiveness of sins. This would associate the remission of sins with the blood of Jesus. I believe Jesus is saying that the cup represents or symbolizes his blood. It means that when they take the cup in the future, it is to remind them of the literal blood of Christ shed for their forgiveness. The forgiveness comes by faith in the blood and not by drinking the literal blood of Jesus in the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge that this is what the cofC interprets Jesus to mean in their view of the Lord’s Supper. But, this interpretation betrays an exegetical, as well as a theological, inconsistency. They do not use the same principle for Matthew 26:28 as they do for Acts 2:38. They take the former as symbolic and the later as literal. In the first passage, they use a more Reformational approach to avoid promoting the Mass. But, in the second passage, they use a sacramental approach and affirm the Roman Catholic position on baptism.

The fact is, one has only two choices:

The Lord’s Supper and Baptism are literally for the remission of sins and therefore the means of remission (ex opere operato)- the position of Rome and some Lutherans)

They are both symbolic and illustrate the higher reality of the blood of Christ shed for our sins, which we appropriate by faith (fides qua creditur)- the position of most Reformation/Evangelical churches). Any other position would involve a purely capricious, ambiguous and ultimately, self-serving interpretation of all of Scripture.
X-factor

Martinsville, VA

#3 May 7, 2010
Peter clearly preaching that the old system of blood sacrifices and the Law are superceded by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is Jesus’ blood which remits all sin, not baptism. For those who were guilty of crucifying Jesus, there could not have been a greater nor more humiliating act of submission and repentance than to be baptized "in the name of Jesus" – the very one they murdered. They were to be baptized "in Jesus’ name" or "on account of Jesus." Why? Because it was his death that remitted their sins. It was on account of Jesus’ death on the Cross that they were forgiven. The very blood that they shed in heinous sin would now be the blood of grace and mercy whereby they would be cleansed. This repentance and faith would all be pictured in the beautiful but humbling act of baptism.

Heath misses this. He places his faith in his ability to find water, not understanding that the Blood of our Messiah was shed in time past and now one is justified by the Blood though faith.
Heath also misses the fact that through the death of Jesus we were reconciled to God, WHEN WE WERE YET SINNERS.

HAVING BEEN ( past tense ) reconciled to God, we shall be saved by His life. The Blood of Jesus remitted sin, took it away, making us reconciled unto God thru His death. Now justification comes through faith in His Blood. We are saved not by His death ONLY, but because he rose again, that we might have life.

Jesus reconciled us to God when we were enemies, how? By remission of sins.

What shall we do?

Repent and be baptized TOWARDS remission of sin, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Greek word EIS, translated FOR, points back to the cross, the place where Jesus shed His blood for remission of sins, thus our repenting and baptism are acts of faith on the account of Jesus Christ, his Blood, His life – the Gospel. Once the church of Christ see this, they will drop this notion that we make God act when we obey baptism. This heretical doctrine has robbed Jesus of the cross, making water baptism the agency of salvation
Kevin

Martinsville, VA

#4 May 7, 2010
this got to be the best thread on here. it makes it very clear and places Jesus as the way the truth and the life. if somebody understand the gospel and knows Jesus blood forgives them, they can understand why repenting and getn baptized relates. It points back as you said and means we do it in view of Jesus work not by our works. great post man!
BFrank

Martinsville, VA

#5 May 7, 2010
I know the denomination -The Church of Christ- believes "that water baptism saves you" but what about..."John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost" John 11:15. All four of the Gospels & the book of Acts speak of being baptized in the Holy Spirit . Jesus told Nicodemus "that you must be born of water & spirit" John 3:5.
Isn't the people who are born of the Spirit(Baptism in The Holy Spirit)..in the true Body of Christ.... not the ones with the sign in the front of their church?

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#6 May 7, 2010
AMEN! to every passage you fellers give.

www.roysecitycoc.org

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#7 May 7, 2010
ACTS 2:38

New International Version
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New Living Translation
Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
And Peter said to them,“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

New American Standard Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

International Standard Version
Peter answered them, "Every one of you must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift.

King James Bible
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American King James Version
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

American Standard Version
And Peter'said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bible in Basic English
And Peter said, Let your hearts be changed, every one of you, and have baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will have the Holy Spirit given to you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

English Revised Version
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
"Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

World English Bible
Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Young's Literal Translation
and Peter said unto them,'Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

www.roysecitycoc.org
Walking in the light

Martinsville, VA

#8 May 7, 2010
Sproul

Martinsville, VA

#9 May 8, 2010
Walking in the light wrote:
http://www.padfield.com/debate s/phillips.html
There is a place for you at Grace Conversation too. You guys seems to enjoy these small forums. You do know you can go online and view the hits here and they are very few.

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#10 May 9, 2010
Sproul wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a place for you at Grace Conversation too. You guys seems to enjoy these small forums. You do know you can go online and view the hits here and they are very few.
This "small forum" is not controlled by hyper-libs.

You want to lure us into a forum that can ban us when things get tough. It's happened before. Topix is nice and neutral. ;)

Jude 3

www.roysecitycoc.org

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#11 May 9, 2010
“This reminds me of a baptismal service we had a few years ago. Our church baptizes my immersion, but we had a young lady with a serious ear problem. Water in the ear could kill her according to the doctor. When her turn came the pastor said he was going to sprinkle her and he did. No one made an issue of it because water is not the savior.” Bobby

"Did Bobby's "pastors" sin? FALSE" Noble Berean

Sproul, is this a false understanding of baptism? YES or NO

www.roysecitycoc.org
Sproul

Martinsville, VA

#12 May 10, 2010
Shawn, I have too much on my plate and must retreat for a while. I hope we can discuss the doctrinal errors that damn and those that do not damn, and why. If this discussion cannot take place, I see no reason for me to stay here, on this forum.

Take care

Since: Jan 10

Royse City

#13 May 10, 2010
Sproul wrote:
Shawn, I have too much on my plate and must retreat for a while. I hope we can discuss the doctrinal errors that damn and those that do not damn, and why. If this discussion cannot take place, I see no reason for me to stay here, on this forum.
Take care
Spoken like a true spineless hyper-lib. You can't even take a stand on the basic action of water baptism.

Pathetic.

Col. 2:12

www.roysecitycoc.org
Sproul

Martinsville, VA

#14 May 10, 2010
HEATH - 72 wrote:
<quoted text>
Spoken like a true spineless hyper-lib. You can't even take a stand on the basic action of water baptism.
Pathetic.
Col. 2:12
www.roysecitycoc.org
I think I have been quite clear on my position regarding baptism, you must have had a memory loss or something. Anyways, if you want to discuss the inconsistencies and define what doctrines damn and why and which doctrines do not and why, lets continue. If your back bone prevents such discussion, I clearly understand why.
Thankful for grace

Anonymous Proxy

#15 May 10, 2010
Your message would come across so much more effective if you did not act like such a jerk all the time. You have zero credibility when you have to attack, lie, and constantly make under-handed slanderous comments. You are greatly misrepresenting Jesus' name and its just plain old.
James

Martinsville, VA

#16 May 10, 2010
Thankful for grace wrote:
Your message would come across so much more effective if you did not act like such a jerk all the time. You have zero credibility when you have to attack, lie, and constantly make under-handed slanderous comments. You are greatly misrepresenting Jesus' name and its just plain old.
Kettle calling the pot black. It's all fine and okay to call Heath a Jerk and be degrading to him but if he calls somebody spineless it’s a bad thing. Come on now
Thankful for grace

Anonymous Proxy

#17 May 10, 2010
James wrote:
<quoted text>
Kettle calling the pot black. It's all fine and okay to call Heath a Jerk and be degrading to him but if he calls somebody spineless it’s a bad thing. Come on now
If you look closely, I intentionally did not call him a jerk-I said he is ACTING like a jerk. There is a difference, and it is true. It is not just the spineless comment. He has no grounds for much of his name-calling, he has blatantly lied about people and when it is true-he will not admit to it or apologize, but tries to use Matthew 23 as an excuse, throws slanderous libel around...and all those who agree with his doctrine stand by and let it happen.
If you cannot see this, then you are not being honest either.

Anyone who honestly claims to be following Christ and is a self proclaimed preacher should not be acting in this manner...but this is Johnny, Heath, et al way of doing things. It is just not right and it's not what Jesus intended.

Come on now.
James

Martinsville, VA

#18 May 10, 2010
You wrong.If not for Johnny this whole town would be going to the pot. Before he moved here the entire county was lost not one soul had been saved in Martinsville and neighboring counties not even from other churches of Christ because they all strayed from the old paths and are allowing false doctrine. Before you speak against brother Johnny you should know if not for him coming here the whole population here would be lost. You owe me and Johnny an apology
James

Martinsville, VA

#19 May 10, 2010
Thankful for grace wrote:
<quoted text>
If you look closely, I intentionally did not call him a jerk-I said he is ACTING like a jerk. There is a difference, and it is true. It is not just the spineless comment. He has no grounds for much of his name-calling, he has blatantly lied about people and when it is true-he will not admit to it or apologize, but tries to use Matthew 23 as an excuse, throws slanderous libel around...and all those who agree with his doctrine stand by and let it happen.
If you cannot see this, then you are not being honest either.
Anyone who honestly claims to be following Christ and is a self proclaimed preacher should not be acting in this manner...but this is Johnny, Heath, et al way of doing things. It is just not right and it's not what Jesus intended.
Come on now.
You wrong. If not for Johnny this whole town would be going to the pot. Before he moved here the entire county was lost not one soul had been saved in Martinsville and neighboring counties not even from other churches of Christ because they all strayed from the old paths and are allowing false doctrine. Before you speak against brother Johnny you should know if not for him coming here the whole population here would be lost. You owe me and Johnny an apology
James

Martinsville, VA

#20 May 10, 2010
Thankful for grace wrote:
<quoted text>
If you look closely, I intentionally did not call him a jerk-I said he is ACTING like a jerk. There is a difference, and it is true. It is not just the spineless comment. He has no grounds for much of his name-calling, he has blatantly lied about people and when it is true-he will not admit to it or apologize, but tries to use Matthew 23 as an excuse, throws slanderous libel around...and all those who agree with his doctrine stand by and let it happen.
If you cannot see this, then you are not being honest either.
Anyone who honestly claims to be following Christ and is a self proclaimed preacher should not be acting in this manner...but this is Johnny, Heath, et al way of doing things. It is just not right and it's not what Jesus intended.
Come on now.
What do you teach? Baptist doctrine or something manmade I bet. Johnny exposes people like you who know not the truth. Turn from your denomination church and find hope in the true church. Have you been baptized for forgiveness of your sins? If not you need to find a church of Christ and be explained a far better way than you believe now and then after you hear the gospel there is four more steps and you will be part of the true church. What are you waiting for. Arise and be baptized and wash away your sin calling on the name of the Lord.

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