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13th Apostle

Martinsville, VA

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#1
Sep 9, 2013
 

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Before yall go hanging barnsweb on a cross know the facts pertaining to Paul. Jesusí brother James hated Paul and warned about Paul. Letters found with the Dead Sea Scrolls written by James called Paul "a spouter of lies". The epistle of James was written in part for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus (Revelation 2:2) where Paul is that false apostle the Lord spoke about and was tried, found a heretic and expelled. Paul mentions this fact in 2 Timothy 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." Tie that with Rev. 2:2.

Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man a plague, a creator of dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. What man!!?? Paul!!

There is only twelve apostles (Revelation 21:14 on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.) NOT 13.

Revelation 2:2: I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

The book of James was written for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus. The trail that Yeshua spoke about in Revelation 2:2 where Paul was found to be a heretic and was expelled.

Paul in 2 Timothy 1:15 affirms his excommunication from the church of Ephesus "Asia". 2 Timothy 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me"

Acts 21:28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man (Paul) who teaches all men everywhere against the people (the Jews), the law (Torah), and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
William

Birmingham, AL

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#2
Sep 9, 2013
 

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"The book of James was written for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus."

I have officially heard everything now.

Since: Jun 11

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#3
Sep 9, 2013
 

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13th Apostle wrote:
Before yall go hanging barnsweb on a cross know the facts pertaining to Paul. Jesusí brother James hated Paul and warned about Paul. Letters found with the Dead Sea Scrolls written by James called Paul "a spouter of lies". The epistle of James was written in part for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus (Revelation 2:2) where Paul is that false apostle the Lord spoke about and was tried, found a heretic and expelled. Paul mentions this fact in 2 Timothy 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." Tie that with Rev. 2:2.
Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man a plague, a creator of dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. What man!!?? Paul!!
There is only twelve apostles (Revelation 21:14 on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.) NOT 13.
Revelation 2:2: I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
The book of James was written for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus. The trail that Yeshua spoke about in Revelation 2:2 where Paul was found to be a heretic and was expelled.
Paul in 2 Timothy 1:15 affirms his excommunication from the church of Ephesus "Asia". 2 Timothy 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me"
Acts 21:28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man (Paul) who teaches all men everywhere against the people (the Jews), the law (Torah), and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
By whose authority do you make these statements? From which of the 40,000 protestant denominations or cults do these unattributed opinions come?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#4
Sep 9, 2013
 

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MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
By whose authority do you make these statements? From which of the 40,000 protestant denominations or cults do these unattributed opinions come?
Its from a fictional Novel similar to to the Da Vinci Code and the "Left Behind " books. "The 13th Apostle"
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#5
Sep 9, 2013
 

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So many are in favor of believing Paul to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, sent with the true gospel to the Gentiles, trusting in his every word as true.

Books can be put in the 'Bible' at some time by someone we know not of and there is no record of why.... The original KJV had the Catholic additions between the OT and NT. Well, for that matter, even the break between OT and NT is added later on. Then the books were taken out of the KJV. Why?

The earliest record of what the Church considered Scripture excluded Pauls' books/writings. They were not added in for almost 300-400 years. These things are just pointed out to show what we have is not what it always was.

So if Joseph Smith Jr. is tested by the standards God gave through Moses, the OT Prophets, His Son, and the Twelve - why not test Paul by those same standards that Joseph Smith Jr. is judged by?

We must start with what God gave Moses in Deu. 4, 12,13,18, as well as the prophets, the Son and the Twelve.

If Paul is truly what he claimed to be - prove it by the standards God commanded and expects us to use to know who we are to trust and believe. If you can't prove Paul passes the test, you need to re-evaluate your faith and who you do trust to tell you the truth from God.
13th Apostle

Martinsville, VA

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#6
Sep 10, 2013
 

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1 Corinthians 9

Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

He also said "then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:7-9).

However, Paul does not meet the criteria for being one of the 12, as he was not with Jesus from the beginning.
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#7
Sep 10, 2013
 

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Reading what Jesus said of warnings about those coming in His name, or claiming to speak for Him, or claiming to be the Christ, or even claiming to be a prophet of God to tell us more information or something they believe they were given - the matter is one we have been warned about - to the extent that if possible, they could deceive even the elect - would you agree this is what He taught?

So taking Paul's claims to personal visitation, that he was 'one untimely born' to be 'least of the apostles', his claim is to be substantiated in what way? By this time many have indeed come in His name, claiming to be the Christ or having some new special revelation - we even have quite a number who claim the Lord speaks to them directly and give interpretations and warnings purportedly to be from God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. Many follow after those who tell such stories - they amass quite a following. One of the more recent is Harold Camping, who was so certain the end was on a particular day - and his strongest beliefs were based not so much on some new revelation, but on his interpretation of the Scriptures. You know as well as I that of the thousands of splintered fellowships of those who claim to be Christians, there is so much division in teachings about 'what must I do to be saved', or 'if you died today, do you know if you'll go to heaven' that it makes mockery of the truth.

Truth. The truth is what matters, and Satan is the father of all lies, and the truth is not in him. Any way Satan can lead people aside from believing God, that is his supreme goal - as seen from the very beginnings of mankind until this very day. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Jesus didn't appear to Paul at all, but I'm just a man, and can be wrong as the next guy. The only way we can know the truth is to believe in Jesus Christ and His word that leads to eternal life as we hear and do, repent and follow Him, yoked to Him till the end.

If Jesus appeared to Paul - which of the accounts of the event are true? The stories of Paul's encounter with the Lord can be found several places - are they not in Acts and some of his writings? The accounts vary significantly - in which does he tell the truth?
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#8
Sep 10, 2013
 

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13th Apostle wrote:
1 Corinthians 9
Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
He also said "then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:7-9).
However, Paul does not meet the criteria for being one of the 12, as he was not with Jesus from the beginning.
That is quite a quote from Paul. Deconstructing it, the seal or proof of his apostleship were his followers? And that those who follow Paul are accounted to Paul's work, rather than each ones work being representative between themselves and the Lord, who is returning to 'render unto each according to his works'? And all the variant accounts of his 'seeing the Lord' just speak mountains that he had no such encounter. Then finally, when Jesus appeared to the apostles and James - that was during the 40 days between the resurrection and Pentecost. Jesus didn't appear to the others after that did He? John was given a vision afterwards. To which of the apostles did Jesus appear after He ascended to the Father in heaven? Or did Jesus say if some say 'look, He is' in the desert or inner chambers or wherever, not to believe them, as upon His return - every eye will see Him?
Barnsweb

Louisville, OH

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#9
Sep 10, 2013
 

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Step up, ye disciples of Paul. Prove he spoke the truth. If you can't, repent of following the false apostle and turn to Jesus with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#10
Sep 10, 2013
 
Barnsweb, I am curious about something.

What do you think that Jesus Christ came into this world to do, exactly?
13th Apostle

Martinsville, VA

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#11
Sep 10, 2013
 

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Who was Jesus speaking about in Revelation if not Paul. The Church of Asia were praised by Jesus for testing those who claim to be Apostles. Paul complains in his writings that Asia had turned on him. Can this be merely a coincidence?

Jamesí letter in the bible was wrote to stomp out Paulís teaching hence why Luther and others wanted to remove James from the bible. Paul was teaching a gospel that put away the Torah. There is also an epistle of James found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (not in the bible) that speaks against Paul.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#12
Sep 10, 2013
 
The first Pope says you are ignorant. In fact he says all Protestants are

2 Peter
4
Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,m
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speaking of these things* as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
17
Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.n
18
But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity.[Amen.]
William

Birmingham, AL

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#13
Sep 10, 2013
 
"Who was Jesus speaking about in Revelation if not Paul. The Church of Asia were praised by Jesus for testing those who claim to be Apostles. Paul complains in his writings that Asia had turned on him. Can this be merely a coincidence?"

Since John wrote Revelation with the Holy Spirit guiding his pen, assuming you believe that sort of thing, then John, who was with Paul as recorded in Galatians and Acts, would have clearly stated that Paul was a fraud and the gospel given to him was not legitimate.

He did none of those things in the Revelation letter. Trying to make it sound as though he did is nothing more than private interpretation.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#14
Sep 10, 2013
 
13th Apostle wrote:
Who was Jesus speaking about in Revelation if not Paul. The Church of Asia were praised by Jesus for testing those who claim to be Apostles. Paul complains in his writings that Asia had turned on him. Can this be merely a coincidence?
Jamesí letter in the bible was wrote to stomp out Paulís teaching hence why Luther and others wanted to remove James from the bible. Paul was teaching a gospel that put away the Torah. There is also an epistle of James found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (not in the bible) that speaks against Paul.
Luther wanted to remove if because of works.
Caleb

United States

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#15
Sep 10, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
The first Pope says you are ignorant. In fact he says all Protestants are
2 Peter
4
Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,m
16
speaking of these things* as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
17
Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.n
18
But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity.[Amen.]
You could not prove Peter was the first pope if your life depened on it. Where did you get that from? The bible? Not!
William

Birmingham, AL

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#16
Sep 10, 2013
 
"Luther wanted to remove if because of works."

Works are found all over Titus too. Did Luther have a beef with that epistle? I have no idea. I do know that he did not like the epistle from James, for the reason you stated.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#17
Sep 10, 2013
 
How about you Paul bashers prove your points with scripture, not here say from some letter in a cave? Continued revelation anyone?

Plus, prove where Paul tried to move himself in as one of the 12. He never said any such thing. Paul, Barnabas, and others are called apostles, yet neither of them tried to gain access as one of the "12".

BW- for a man claiming often to say that "the sum of Thy word is truth", why all of a sudden does that not pertain to Paul's words? Instead let's take one quote from him and twist it around against him.

William said: Barnsweb, I am curious about something.

What do you think that Jesus Christ came into this world to do, exactly?

This needs an answer. And Caleb is so worried about Peter as pope he ignored the dangerous topic of this conversation.

And where, oh where, is the proof of this wonderful "trial of Paul" except in the imagination of those who need to discredit Paul to make their theology work?

And where is Bobby?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#18
Sep 10, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Its from a fictional Novel similar to to the Da Vinci Code and the "Left Behind " books. "The 13th Apostle"
I thought Rufus was the 13th apostle? Ever see the movie "Dogma"? Chris Rock was Rufus.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#19
Sep 10, 2013
 
Before yall go hanging barnsweb on a cross know the facts pertaining to Paul.

Rufus, you need to PROVE this, not just the same tired verses twisted to attempt to show it.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#20
Sep 10, 2013
 
Caleb wrote:
<quoted text>
You could not prove Peter was the first pope if your life depened on it. Where did you get that from? The bible? Not!
Sure I can. The Bible specifically says it and history proves it.

You did not refute that Peter said you were ignorant though.

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