Talk About Homosexuality

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Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#21
Jun 9, 2013
 
Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
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Not true, Barnsweb. Desiring something comes naturally - some refer to it as temptation - would you agree that people do not choose what they are tempted by?
You are saying that people have a choice as to being gay or just being straight. I suggest that a gay person in a heterosexual relationship is pursuing the desires of OTHER people in an effort to be accepted. It's unfair to the actual heterosexual person - the spouse should be the person who is desired - if your spouse pines over other people, men or women, then you are being betrayed. It is a misconception to think that heterosexual sex will satisfy gay sexual urges - it is only a substitution for that person's true desires.
Here is a discussion about a gay man who is happily married to a woman, has children, and is passionate and faithful to his religion. This couple seems very happy, but I bet the number of women happy to be married to gay men must be very few. I would suggest that this issue will become more important as this couple realizes just how long "forever" is and that they are only so happy because they are so young.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Each is lead away by their own desires, God doesn't do the tempting. Precious few ever consider the role of what God has declared good to be the goal of their life to serve. With billions in the world today, and the millions on youtube, all this shows is who condones following their own heart instead of following God. I've known bi-sexual men who got aids and it destroyed their marriage and their family. Sin has a price to be paid. It's really that simple.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#22
Jun 9, 2013
 
Dave- I agree that some desires do come naturally. And generally people cannot choose what they are tempted by. BUT BUT BUT- they can choose whether or not to give in to that temptation. And desire and temptation are not necessarily the same thing.

ASM-If a sexual desire is considered a temptation to sin, why isn't it a sin to act on ANY sexual desire? All people experience sexual desire - humans are the ones who have designated some to be proper and others not. There is no actual harm in engaging in gay sex. Why are people's sexual activities and desires anybody's business?

Dave: Many of them do. Many simply do choose to engage in homosexual behavior. Seen several examples personally. Many homosexuals have willingly stopped engaging in homosexual behavior.

ASM-I suggest that a person's behavior does not designate them to be gay - it is a person's thoughts that make that distinction. Heterosexual people often engage in the same sex acts as gay people - the distinction is gender. A gay person who has heterosexual sex is still a gay person. A gay person who has no sex - still gay.

Dave: Maybe it is unfair. But who is to blame? Personal responsibility. One can blame society all they want. But if someone is marrying someone of the opposite sex simply to "be accepted", don't make the society at large out to be the bad guy. The homosexual person could have simply not married. Especially if heterosexual sex doesn't fulfill urges.

ASM-No one is to blame but the individual? Don't blame society for encouraging people to do what is most accepted by the society? Look at the options that Christianity allows gay people:(1)marry heterosexually and have hetero-sex,(2)do not marry and have no sex. You see how neither of these options take into consideration the needs of the gay person it is governing. It is a Christian decision to disregard gay people's sexual needs - it is intolerance. It's not healthy for gays to follow Christianity - it's not in their best interest.

Dave-Since the beginning of time homosexuality has not been deemed socially acceptable. Homosexual marriage has not been allowed anywhere until recently. Islam will never- NEVER- accept it. But yet society is being asked and TOLD that thousands of years of belief and practice must be changed for "fairness", acceptance, and so all can have the opportunity to fulfill their urges?

This country was founded on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are not guaranteed happiness- just the opportunity to pursue it. And homosexual behavior is something no government has ever considered embracing.

ASM-Since the beginning of time, 5% of the population has been unable to influence law making - the resources of THIS period of time have made it possible for something that has never happened before to finally happen. It is absolutely logical that history has followed this path - it is not a reason to continue following it. Not allowing gay marriage is a form of discrimination that needs to be corrected because all of our laws are supposed to be based on fairness and equality.

Although we are not guaranteed happiness, the current laws are preventing gays to pursue happiness through marriage while allowing the heterosexuals to pursue happiness this way.By allowing benefits for some and not others, it is discrimination.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#23
Jun 9, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
We all get so hung up on the idea that "we can't help how we feel, our sexual preferences, etc". But do we forget that up until just a few centuries ago many if not most marriages were arranged by the parents?
How many of those people learned how to love someone they hadn't met possibly? Or someone they hadn't "fell in love with" first?
And yet now we must believe that people "can't help" themselves?
People are still able to control their actions - the liberties that we are allowed today lead people to ask WHY they should have to control their actions based on the instructions of other people.

I think I'll have gay sex - hey, don't do that - why not - because I said so. "Because I said so" is not a good enough reason to do things these days. Why did people marry people they didn't know or didn't love? Someone TOLD them to do and they obeyed. The Land of the Free allows "obeying religion" to be an option.

People CAN control themselves - our freedoms have made it more and more difficult for religion to control US.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#24
Jun 9, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Each is lead away by their own desires, God doesn't do the tempting. Precious few ever consider the role of what God has declared good to be the goal of their life to serve. With billions in the world today, and the millions on youtube, all this shows is who condones following their own heart instead of following God. I've known bi-sexual men who got aids and it destroyed their marriage and their family. Sin has a price to be paid. It's really that simple.
I know heterosexual people who have AIDS and live their lives coping with it like any other person who has a terminal disease. AIDS is not punishment for gay sex - AIDS is available for everyone and it is the individual's responsibility to protect themselves from it.

Are people with Cancer being punished for their actions? Where is the rationalization behind people born with deformities? How could they be punished before they had a chance to sin?

How do healthy people get punished? They sin too.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#25
Jun 10, 2013
 
Either there is a hell, or there is not.
Either there is a God, or there is not.
Either there is good, or there is not.
Either there is evil, or there is not.
Either God has given mankind the blueprint for eternal life, or He has not.

As the high level Mason told me,'Guess it's just a matter of what you believe.'

Trouble is, future reality may be different than what we've been told by men. The Bible prophets have pulled off some remarkable tellings so far - just to not the prophecies of the Messiah alone, that are fulfilled by the one claiming the title in the NT. Given that, and the chances not being in my personal favor that the universe revolves around me - I must defer to the Master Teacher, Prophet and Apostle of Heaven - I'll take His word for knowing and telling the truth on heaven, hell, God, Satan, and some basic directions for my life.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#26
Jun 10, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
Either there is a hell, or there is not.
Either there is a God, or there is not.
Either there is good, or there is not.
Either there is evil, or there is not.
Either God has given mankind the blueprint for eternal life, or He has not.
As the high level Mason told me,'Guess it's just a matter of what you believe.'
Trouble is, future reality may be different than what we've been told by men. The Bible prophets have pulled off some remarkable tellings so far - just to not the prophecies of the Messiah alone, that are fulfilled by the one claiming the title in the NT. Given that, and the chances not being in my personal favor that the universe revolves around me - I must defer to the Master Teacher, Prophet and Apostle of Heaven - I'll take His word for knowing and telling the truth on heaven, hell, God, Satan, and some basic directions for my life.
It is your right to choose your beliefs. Even though our beliefs are in conflict - couldn't there be a peaceful co-existence between believer and non-believers?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#27
Jun 10, 2013
 
I think that's what we have here in Western society, but you'll have to take the Easterners talk of murdering those who don't believe what they do up with them. Seems crazy to me.

Got a good email yesterday that I'll try to put below.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#28
Jun 10, 2013
 
This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well-known leader in prison ministry.



"The man who walks with God always gets to his destination."



The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in the United States , especially in the minority races!!



Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance.



During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who each explained their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic had to say.



The Muslim gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Muslim and asked:



"Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel,(which is a command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven."



"If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"



There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"



I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah are taught that to kill anyone who is not of your faith will assure them of a place in heaven. Is that correct?"



He replied, "Yes."



I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine The Pope commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith, or Dr.Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee them a place in heaven!"



The Muslim was silent.



I continued, "I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question:

Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to go to heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and He wants you to be there with me?"



You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam looked away without a comment.



Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the

'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with my way of dealing with the Islamic Imam, andexposing the truth about the Muslims' beliefs.



In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U.S. to elect the President!



I think everyone in the U.S. should be required to read this, but with the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized, unless each of us sends it on! This is your chance to make a difference...

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#29
Jun 11, 2013
 
But these are the words of Leviticus - a part of the Bible that I hate discussing, because the messages are outrageous.

20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

Certain sinners are to be punished with death? I don't know any Christians who actually believe this. BUT - there is it, right in the Bible. A fine example of how you should use reason before following Bible instructions.

I only know a few Muslims and NONE of them have ever killed ANYONE and they, like me, are the extreme minority in the area where they live - so, it's not like they haven't had the opportunity..

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#30
Jun 11, 2013
 

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A friend once said to me, "Christians have killed more people than they have saved." I was like: OW - that's harsh. But look at this:

How many people died at the hands of Christians as a result of intolerance?

Around 5,000,000 in the first 4 crusades, with another 1,000,000 in the Albigensian Crusade.

Then to weed out those nasty people that were left, there was The Holy Office to deal with, which accounted for around another 140,000. Mostly tortured first before suffering some disgusting fate that they dreamed up.
Maybe 200,000 witches, then you can add in the Wars of Religion in Europe that was about 3,400,000, The 30 Years War, 40% of Germany annihilated plus 1000`s of others.

Then there was the persecution of the Jews, about 450,000 up to the end of the 17th century and so on.

About 23,500,000...maybe more.

And that is just Europe and the Levant plus I stopped counting at around the year 1700.

This anonymous writer added:

I am sorry, but Hitler was most definitely a Christian, he even refered to himself as `evangelical` read his speeches and Mein Kampf.

I don`t know why people try to cover that up now.

Is it because of Gehlen`s involvement in the American secret services, Project Paperclip and Werner Von Braun etc. I wonder ?

The Church even ran death camps for the Nazis in the former Yugoslavia.

This information is not new to us Europeans.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index...

No - I have not researched this information. What is your opinion of it?
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#31
Jun 11, 2013
 
ASM: Certain sinners are to be punished with death? I don't know any Christians who actually believe this. BUT - there is it, right in the Bible. A fine example of how you should use reason before following Bible instructions.

Dave: Usually most atheists who present ideas like this are mocking Christianity. Since you seem to be sincerely wanting dialog, I will start.

There's a reason this book is called "Leviticus". This book is primarily dealing with the Levites, the priestly tribe of Israel. Much of this book is dealing with religious and secular rules, duties, and obligations for the life of the physical OT nation of Israel. This was written in a specific time, for a specific purpose, for a specific people.

Much of this book-but not ALL- have been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. However, the moral aspect remains intact. The law of Moses was given to mankind to reveal to us what God considers sin. He has not changed His mind on these things. Adultery, incest, beastiality, homosexuality is still considered sin by God. The death penalty aspect is not in effect physically because- we are not Levites nor the nation of Israel. By the NT times Rome was in charge in Israel and the Jews could not enforce the death penalty.

Our nation will not put anyone to death for these, nor would Christians. The catch- this truly isn't about physical death. These people who live in this manner are dead spiritually, and God will have no choice but to allow them to suffer the final spiritual death if they remain so.

For all the people who run to Leviticus to ridicule the Bible and Christians, this is the reason one should read the entire scripture and get the whole story before jumping to outrageous conclusions. Even our esteemed POTUS makes the same mistake.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#32
Jun 11, 2013
 

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A friend once said to me, "Christians have killed more people than they have saved." I was like: OW - that's harsh. But look at this:

How many people died at the hands of Christians as a result of intolerance?

ASM: this is why I have said Christianity and Catholicism are not necessarily one and the same; and that people will use Christianity for their own wicked purposes. Truly converted people to Jesus Christ will have nothing to do with such actions.

I believe the book of Revelation fortells the use of religion by the state for wicked purposes.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#33
Jun 11, 2013
 
DAVE! Yours is the best explanation I have ever read about Leviticus and it IS logical - Thank you!

I was motivated by these discussions to search some Atheist websites and you are correct - they would like to rub these verses right in your face!

Aren't these sins addressed elsewhere in the Bible? Leviticus is a long list of how to punish sinners - God doesn't expect Christians to punish sinners - why is this book still included? I know that other books originally included have been removed - why is Leviticus still respected as God's message when it seems to go against it?

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#34
Jun 11, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
This is why I have said Christianity and Catholicism are not necessarily one and the same; and that people will use Christianity for their own wicked purposes. Truly converted people to Jesus Christ will have nothing to do with such actions.
I believe the book of Revelation fortells the use of religion by the state for wicked purposes.
This is an argument I have heard to support the idea that the "end times" are happening and Jesus's return will be sooner than later.

Suppose that our war enemies could be described as Muslim and our allies are described as Christians. That wouldn't be entirely accurate, but in general, the US and Europe could be described as Christian and the middle-eastern countries could generally be described as Muslim. Couldn't it be said that Christians are at war with Muslims?

So, our government has entered into war with these people - but not one of their reasons was to spread Christianity or to discourage Islam. Those people participating (on our side) were called to support their country, not God. Our US population is 80% Christian and so I would assume that our troops are 80% Christian - however, they are 100% fighting against opposing forces because their goals are not motivated by religion.

Some would argue that the chaos in the middle east has a firm base of Islam motivating it. Regardless of our motivations - they are moved by Islam to destroy us because we are non-believers. Hmm. I don't know about that. It would explain why the US felt motivated to actively disrupt their activities, even though they are on the other side of the world.

The side with all the good oil.

I don't really think the US is so concerned about religious beliefs as much as they are concerned about oil.

Since: Jul 12

Pineville, WV

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#35
Jun 11, 2013
 

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I will research some Islamic ideas before I start slamming them in the mud.
William

Mount Vernon, AR

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#36
Jun 11, 2013
 
The United States and Britain have a long and proud history of going to war over oil and petroleum products with nations that oppose our collective interests. And if it wasn't war, it was political involvement in nations like Iran in the 50's when we actively took part in overthrowing a democratically elected prime minister.

We are still paying for that mistake.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#37
Jun 11, 2013
 

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Awesome_Steve_Monkey wrote:
DAVE! Yours is the best explanation I have ever read about Leviticus and it IS logical - Thank you!
I was motivated by these discussions to search some Atheist websites and you are correct - they would like to rub these verses right in your face!
Aren't these sins addressed elsewhere in the Bible? Leviticus is a long list of how to punish sinners - God doesn't expect Christians to punish sinners - why is this book still included? I know that other books originally included have been removed - why is Leviticus still respected as God's message when it seems to go against it?
Yes most of these sins are addressed later in the Bible. The gospels especially. The food restrictions, for example, are no longer in effect because Jesus said that food doesn't defile, but what comes from the heart defiles.

Leviticus is still a useful book because we see many types and shadows of Jesus in it; and we get an idea about the holiness of God, one of His primary characteristics. The Jewish feasts give us an idea of Jesus' work; sacrifices tell us of the cost of sin.

As far as "punishing sinners" goes, there are two ways to look at that. 1- God has given government the authority to punish wrongdoers (Romans 13). 2- sinners will be punished at the final judgment.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#38
Jun 11, 2013
 
ASM: I don't really think the US is so concerned about religious beliefs as much as they are concerned about oil.

Dave: I agree.

ASM: This is an argument I have heard to support the idea that the "end times" are happening and Jesus's return will be sooner than later.

Dave: I don't believe in the "end times" ideas that most people do. I think the prophecy in Revelation was showing what was happening in that day and time; but the same things would happen in cycles throughout history. We're living in just another cycle.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#39
Jun 11, 2013
 
William wrote:
The United States and Britain have a long and proud history of going to war over oil and petroleum products with nations that oppose our collective interests. And if it wasn't war, it was political involvement in nations like Iran in the 50's when we actively took part in overthrowing a democratically elected prime minister.
We are still paying for that mistake.
Iran/contra; Iraq and Saddam; Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan; Vietnam; Nicaragua; Iran-except at times we could have made a real difference; Egypt. Am I forgetting some? Surely I am. Bosnia. Somalia.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#40
Jun 12, 2013
 
"Iran/Contra; Iraq and Saddam; Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan; Vietnam; Nicaragua; Iran-except at times we could have made a real difference; Egypt. Am I forgetting some? Surely I am. Bosnia. Somalia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_cou... '%C3%A9tat

I don't always trust Wiki, but that article is a pretty good account of what started all the trouble with us and Iran, which we are still paying for to this very day.

I was in high school when the hostage crisis occurred. Years later, I wondered WHY these people got so mad at us and did what they did.

This story provides the answer.

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