Psychologists in state ask for authority to prescribe
“Virtually all (psychiatric) cases start with a primary care doctor -- an internist, family practice doctor, occasionally in pediatrics.”
Missouri psychologists and their patients are asking lawmakers for the authority to write certain prescriptions for mental health disorders, saying it will improve access to badly needed care. via Springfield News LeaderFull Story
#1 Jan 14, 2008
This is yet another way to get rid of psychotherapy which teaches patients to help themselves while increasing further drug use via prescription.
The more people who can prescribe means more drugs are prescribed and less therapy. The psychologists were paid to do psychotherapy. Now they want to leave that and drug every patient- something they have not adequate training to do- which is not that helpful a substantial amount of the time. It just trains patients to dig themselves deeper into the sick role and fail to be productive.
Psychiatrists are capable of doing psychotherapy but the industry soon shoved that away from them in order to use them to write drugs with all their time. More drugs sold that way and people stay sick forever as they are not taught to help themselves.
Drug, drug drug is what this is all about which amounts to Money, money money. Drugs are more costly than psychotherapy.
#2 Jan 14, 2008
Yada, you are quite misinformed on many levels.
!) As I said in the other thread, the majority of psychologists do not want to prescribe. We are content to let the docs prescribe and let us do the psychotherapy. Right now I pay 400$ something dollars a year for malpractice coverage up to 3 million dollars, I have no desire to carry the coverage that MD's do.
2) The vast majority of psychiatrists are not trained in psychotherapy and are not capable of providing such services. They are experts in diagnosis and med mgt but very few (save for the old schoolers who are becoming few and far between) are schooled in psychotherapeutic interventions.
3) Medication is vital for so many patients even those who are engaged in therapy. Oftentimes medications are used at the beginning of treatment to give the patient rapid symptom relief so that they can be more receptive to psychotherapy. Other patients have chronic conditions that require them to stay on medication long term to stabilize their symptoms. The number one commonality you hear when admitting patients into the hospital is that they stopped taking their meds and decompensated. Surely some meds are prescribed irresponsibly, usually by primary care docs with minimal knowledge of psychotropics but to say that medication fails to work more often than not is simply not accurate.
#3 Jan 15, 2008
Giving a psychologist or any mental health worker the rights to prescribe psychotropic drugs or A/anti psychotropic drugs would be like putting blood in the water to attract the sharks of profits and power. It would be more protective of the public;s interest to enact more controls and enforce restrictions over the mental health and counseling industry that would require a video tape of any counseling and a Federal computerized data base linking patient to mental health worker and the drug prescribed.
#4 Jan 15, 2008
lol paranoid much HumanSpirit? You know antipsychotics can help with that.
#5 Jan 15, 2008
I would not think it is being paranoid.. it's facing reality:
Without a test for chemical imbalance the mental health, the "psychiatric diagnosis" is limited in the ancillary tests of medicine like an EKG, EEG, blood work or other tests in the diagnoses of a patient. They aren't really needed in Psychiatry.
I think you can see, and probably know, as a student, that the psychiatric diagnosis is made on the basis of behavior or spoken words or the hearsay from a neighor, friend, estranged husband/wife who may very well be making a false allegation or creating a position in a court of law for their advantage. I am sure that Medicare or Disability and insurances play a large part in the diagnoses. Basically you are making a diagnoses on the physiological differences between the so called "mentally ill" and the "normal" without knowing what a proper and healthy chemical "balance" look like?" There is no test.
If we respect metabolic changes based on daily dietary habits, weight gain / loss , terms of the survival of the organisms as a person age along with physical conditioning, physical illness, electrolyte level, gender differences , body temperature, I don't see where the Mental Health and Counseling Industry could conform to any consistency in data with consideration to the above to state a person has a mental disease or illness based on chemical imbalance. Beside that, the mental health psychiatric diagnoses isn't even part of standard medical procedure known as the medical model in which all doctors are trained and is the only branch of medicine operating completely on political decisions.
So, on the basis of a 10 minute exchange between doctor & patient, a diagnosis of atypical schizophrenia (others) can be made and what is disturbing is that with the aid of a 2nd physician, the patient can be involuntarily hospitalized without any due process of law.. There is no other branch of medicine that permits this sort of thing.
If an orthopedic surgeon operated on a patient without the aid of an X-ray, he would be working at the car wash the next day.
#6 Jan 15, 2008
Peter, your profession is all about psychotropic drugs and promoting non-existent mental illnesses and exaggerating, propaganderizing and creating healthy people into patients and causing iatrogenic (medically induced) harm. I will get into the political aspect of how then mental health came on the scene in the USA (1980's)under the Reagan/H W Bush presidency at a later time and the possiities of a Republican coup d'etat to the "New World Order" to destabilize this nation after you digest the truth in my above post.
Here's some thing for you to dwell on:
People will fall for just about anything...
February 18 2007 at 11:57AM
New York - A media exhibit featuring a campaign for a fake drug to treat a fictitious illness is causing a stir because some people think the illness is real.
Australian artist Justine Cooper created the marketing campaign for a non-existent drug called Havidol for Dysphoric Social Attention Consumption Deficit Anxiety Disorder (DSACDAD), which she also invented.
But the multi-media exhibit at the Daneyal Mahmood Gallery in New York, which includes a website, mock television and print advertisements and billboards is so convincing people think it is authentic.
"People have walked into the gallery and thought it was real," Mahmood said in an interview.
'Subtle kind of parody'
"They didn't get the fact that this was a parody or satire."
But Mahmood said it really took off over the Internet. In the first few days after the website ( www.havidol.com ) went up, it had 5 000 hits. The last time he checked it had reached a quarter of a million.
"The thing that amazes me is that it has been folded into real websites for panic and anxiety disorder. It's been folded into a website for depression. It's been folded into hundreds of art blogs," he added.
The parody is in response to the tactics used by the drug industry to sell their wares to the public. Consumer advertising for prescription medications, which are a staple of television advertising in the United States, was legalised in the country in 1997.
Cooper said she intended the exhibit to be subtle.
"The drug ads themselves are sometimes so comedic. I couldn't be outrageously spoofy so I really wanted it to be a more subtle kind of parody that draws you in, makes you want this thing and then makes you wonder why you want it and maybe where you can get it," she added.
Mahmood said that in addition to generating interest among the artsy crowd, doctors and medical students have been asking about the exhibit.
"I think people identify with the condition," he said.
The number of people who were professional mental health workers started recommending the bogus drug to treat all types of hyped up mental illnesses is amazing.
Here's the website:
#7 Jan 15, 2008
Because a blood test does not exist to diagnose mental illness does not mean that MI doesn't exist. Arguments to the contrary are ridicoulous and are usually made by individuals who have no experience in the field. You say that MI is diagnosed by hearsay from angry exwives and comparison to healthy individuals. The majority of patients who present for inpatient hospitalization do so of their own volition and are very forthcoming with descriptions of their symptoms/illness. These people often fear that they lack the impulse control to harm themselves or others and want to be in a safe place. Others are tortured by hallucinations and are looking for help in diminishing their symptoms. Who are you to say that their challenges in life arent real because you say you need to see a blood test to validate their claims. So many peoples lives and the lives of the people who love them have been negatively affected by their illness which is often alleviated by medication and psychotherapy. Do you contend that these people make up their symptoms, sabotage relationships with their family and lose their jobs on purpose???
Please, go educate yourself (ie. volunteering at a local psych hospital, not reading propoganda on the internet) and get some insight into the challenges people with mental illness face everyday of their lives and the wonderful treatments available to eliminate their suffering. Until then, practice some responsibility and don't speak on topics you know nothing about.
#8 Jan 15, 2008
Do you understand the difference between psychology and psychiatry? I don't think that you do because you continue to refer to "my profession" as being all about psychotropics when it is in fact all about psychotherapy.
The second half of your quote has been addressed in my above post. Please don't continue to post unless you are doing so to gain education.
#9 Jan 15, 2008
I understand.. Do you? So how's it work, the psychiatrist prescribes the toxic mind medication and then he leaves the rest up to the psychologist to twist the mind of some unsuspecting person by mind alteration using psychotherapy or does your profession just hang around the court house all day giving the judicial judge a head job for forced clients?
#10 Jan 15, 2008
Congressional House Panel on investigation of Mental Health:
TEENS FORCED INTO CARE, PANEL HEARS
States News Service
WASHINGTON - Thousands of adolescents have been hospitalized for psychiatric treatment they didn’t need -- with some kept against their wills until their Insurance ran out—and psychiatrists and school Counselors received kickbacks for referring them a House panel was told Tuesday.
“There is no question in my mind that Corporate profits have taken priority over patient care in many instances and that some care providers have compromised their principles and their professional codes of ethics in pursuit of the almighty dollar,” Texas state Sen. Mike Moncrief told the House Select Committee on Children, Youth and Families.
“Clearly, this business of treating minds - particularly this big business of treating young minds - has not policed itself, and has no incentive to put a stop to the kinds of fraudulent and unethical practices that are going on,” said Chairwoman Patricia Schroeder, D-Colo.
A New Jersey insurance official told a house panel Tuesday that insurance fraud by private psychiatric hospitals in his state and around the country “is a time bomb waiting to explode” and urged that abusers be hit where it hurts---in the pocketbooks.
“ They’re in it for the money; ‘Let’s take all their money away from them,” said Louis, Parisi,
director of the New Jersey Department of Insurance.
“The length of a hospital slays is often a function of the amount of insurance available,”
Parisi said. Many times the patient: are released by hospitals on the very same day his or her benefits are terminated “
The Mental Health Parity Scam
65 Accused Of Aiding Health Fraud
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag ... 1C0A96F958260
Paying for Fraud/A special report.; Mental Hospital Chains Accused of Much Cheating on Insurance
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag ... 2C1A967958260
#11 Jan 15, 2008
Yes HumanSpirit that's what I do all day, "mind alteration". Why don't you go get your GED and then try and converse with me on some meaningful level instead of citing newspaper clipping's that you think contend my decade of experience in the field.
#12 Jan 16, 2008
What did you do, chewed though your restraints this morning or perhaps you forgot to take your morning psychotropic drug. I acknowledge your education but question your intelligence and motive.
As I stated, I believe the practice of medicine is predicated on something called the "medical model" which doctors learn in medical school and has a set of procedures by which they practice medicine. Psychiatry, Psychologist, psychotherapist" (psycho - the - rapist) and the 101 other titles of importance, if any, in the field of psychiatry / psychology I lump into one broad category: "The mental health worker" for convenience.
To me, Psychiatry is misplaced in academia and belongs in social medicine. Psychology should be part of anthropology and brains are topics of biology.
Psychiatrist mainly guess as to psychotropic drugs used on many of the made to order mental disease which were voted on by the hand raising exercises of the American Psychiatric Association members, yearly, and listed in the DSM. I think you can see, Psychiatry with it inventive ideology stemming from "phrenology" to electro shock therapy is dealing into the dark science much like one that would practice voodoo or witchcraft or play a game, with a person mind, of Tarot cards.
A quote of Psychotherapy for you:
“Psychotherapy may be known in the future as the greatest hoax of the twentieth century.”
Dr. Lawrence LeShan, former president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology
As for psychiatrists diagnosing an illness predicated on something like pain & suffering or behavior or conduct is absurd to me and I would discount the diagnoses as much as I would distrust their theories of physical or chemical lobotomies or shock treatment.
Neurology on the other hand plays the deepest part of clinical research and testing and has the responsibility for operations such as you would see with Parkinson's disease or Deep Brain Stimulation procedure or involvement with 'Black Mold' Stachybotrys which causes organs, including the brain, to hemorrhage and stops cell growth and so, a psychiatrist, in my opinion, has little to do except collect monies on unwarranted hospital rounds or financially reward themselves on the cash cow of referrals and by judging a person on the tip of the tongue statement.
The newly emergence of neurology and psychiatry into one profession "neuropsychiatry" has some merit. I suspect this was done to give some creditability to psychiatry which is lagging in the sciences and to combine the professional names so that a patient can go to a one shop procedure and neurologist can keep a watchful eye on the corruption of psychiatry and the pharmaceutical drugs they dispense for their inventive mental diseases and profit.
Normally I wouldn't give mention of Scientology because of the mental health industry controversy,(I am not a Scientologist) however, the video's using non Scientology people at a mental health convention represents fair usage by me of this modern technology and use of the web.
#13 Jan 16, 2008
Wrong. I never said all psychologists want prescribing priveleges. I think I was clear why they should not have them.
Wrong again. Psychatrists ARE IN FACT, trained to do most psychotherapies. They must in order to pass residency and become board eligible. They practice psychotherapy all through their reisidency of four years and sometimes beyond in certain subspeciality fields such as consult liaison. All acredidated residency programs MUST comply with this all over the USA or their doctors will not be recognized or become board eligible. The major therapies they must know to perform are CBT(and DBT, TA, REBT, Psychodynamics, supportive therapy, family therapy and a few others including motivational interviewing, insight oriented, gestalt, family therapy, CISM...
Wrong yet again. I never stated nor insinuated that psychotropics fail to work.
I discoursed on the press to sell more drugs and the alternative routes used by the pharmaceutical industry to get that accomplished with a cautionary allusion these strategems removed peoples' personal power and leave them only consumers of drugs. I strengthened the importance of protecting access to self-empowering psychotherapy by leaving the psychologists available to do this rather than lackey themselves to sell more drugs.
I hope this is more comprehensible for you and your spirited friend below. Cheers!
#14 Jan 16, 2008
How else should I interpret that statement?
What else can I say about the rest of your post yada? We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I actually attend medical school which has a track for clinical psych doctorate degrees so we work closely with the psychiatry students. They receive some training in CBT and behavior thx but never practice it outside of the classroom. I work at 2 psych hospitals and intern at another and have yet to meet a doc or even hear of one who does therapy. Learning all of the orientations you posted is a superhuman feat as analysis alone takes a minimum of 10 yrs to practice competently. I will however admit that my experience is anecdotal as I am not sure of the board requirements they need to pass.
I will admit that overall I am usually unimpressed by most psychiatrists I meet. Yes they know how to diagnose and prescribe meds but assessment and therapeutic interventions they typically know little of. Usually the older guys are better at conceptualizing patients. From their perspective it doesnt pay (literally) to know and practice psychotherapy. They can do 3 med checks in an hour for 125$ a pop so why would they want to practice therapy at a much lower hourly rate?
I'm not saying its right, but thats just how it is.
#15 Jan 17, 2008
Well at least you may have grasped the concept that this is about money and the drug companies finding ways to sell more drug to make more of it.
I happen to know the requirements for psychiatrist as put forth by ACGME thank you.
Psychatrists still practice psychotherapy. Some insurances will pay for it for their clients such as BCBS, Aetna, Cigna and a couple other ones. These have dropped the amount of remuneration for psychotherapy however after 1999. More and more insurances refuse psychotherapy for their clients and also demand older, generic drugs as treatment which are cheaper. These drugs also work fairly well but often offer more side effects in the areas of sedation, xerostomia and weight gain.
But like you said if the perception is that doctors get more per hour drugging people why would psychologists not thirst for that also instead of empowering people with psychotherapy, maybe you can readily and persuasively tell.
My doctors see mainly medicare and medicaid patients and the pay is $32 and $37 respectively. in 2006 medicare $39 but cut cost last year to 32.
Few people have private insurance these days of any good caliber. I personally know of no insurance currently that covers $125.00 per visit. Name some here if you know so I can get in on that. Maybe I can get my doctors a raise to keep up with gas prices and rising costs of living. I do billing and know that even if your asking price is say 125 per visit you will get about 70 or less from private insurances. I also know that doctors are not making the millions people think because I pay mine not much for their education and big school loans.
Medicaid patients have two thirds no show rate and medicare half. Do the math and see how much pops out an hour of mainly medicare and medicaid clientele. Cheers!
#16 Jan 17, 2008
We are not that far off in our assertions as it may seem. I never disagreed that pharma companies push their products like any other industry, sometimes unecessarily. I simply stated that psychologists as a whole would not peddle meds just because it might equate to an increase in pay. Many of us who are seeking PhD's and PsyD's could easily have attended med school but made a decision to help people using therapy as our medium.
125$ a session was an arbitrary number I used to make a point. Anyway you cut it, unless you run a cash business MD's are going to be getting a higher hourly rate doing med checks than providing therapy. I'll yield to your experience regarding insurance as mine is limited to fighting over the phone with them getting patients precerted.
As an aside, I have a friend on the east coast who is known for treating well-to-do clientelle mostly with substance use issues. His clients are very very discrete and always pay their 150$/hr rate in cash to avoid any type of paper trail. This guy makes out like you cannot believe.
Anyway, what is your position in the field yada? It is obvious that you are educated. I'm wrapping up a clinical doctorate if I can get my dissertation flushed out.
#17 Jan 18, 2008
Psychiatrists Top List in Drug Maker Gifts
“I Love Life, People & Animals”
Since: Feb 07
El Paso, Texas
#18 May 8, 2008
Providing the therapy to clients is far more rewarding than making the so-called money Peter. Glad you're in the profession.
#19 Feb 19, 2013
Death, violence, erratic behavior and the suicide by mind drugs
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