Ethanol plants fuel corn craze

Two more are slated to open by the end of the year. The development is a good one for Ohio's corn farmers, who will have another market for selling their crop.

[a voice]

Soon many will make their own fuel from corn and even potato peels. A little sugar and yeast and say goodbye to Mohammad's cartel.

[TICKED OFF]

We will soon not have any food to eat, but we will have plenty of Ethanol to drink...Screw the "GREENS" and envirnmentalists, and all the other wacky liberal dem-o-rats who have stifled all energy production in this country. The President should immediately open ANWAR for production, Open ALL offshore for drilling, the cheinese are drilling evrywhere in the Carribean sea, Give permits to build REFINERIES as many as necessary, and permits for many nuclear power plants asap..........

[Whos Free]

Ethanol is a joke. Takes oil to produce it so where's the benefit. Decrease in mpg, that' not a benefit.

[The Big Lebowski]

Ethanol is a fraud. Ethanol contains water that distillation cannot remove. As such, it can cause major damage to automobile engines not specifically designed to burn ethanol. The water content of ethanol also risks pipeline corrosion and thus must be shipped by truck, rail car or barge. These shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.

Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank. That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities. And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent.

Ethanol is so costly that it wouldn't make it in a free market. That's why Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers. In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.

Ethanol production has driven up the prices of corn-fed livestock, such as beef, chicken and dairy products, and products made from corn, such as cereals. As a result of higher demand for corn, other grain prices, such as soybean and wheat, have risen dramatically.

It is time to stop the madness, and for people to start seeing ethanol for the hoax that it is.

[George N]

The Big Lebowski wrote:

Ethanol is a fraud. Ethanol contains water that distillation cannot remove. As such, it can cause major damage to automobile engines not specifically designed to burn ethanol. The water content of ethanol also risks pipeline corrosion and thus must be shipped by truck, rail car or barge. These shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.
Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank. That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities. And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent.
Ethanol is so costly that it wouldn't make it in a free market. That's why Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers. In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.
Ethanol production has driven up the prices of corn-fed livestock, such as beef, chicken and dairy products, and products made from corn, such as cereals. As a result of higher demand for corn, other grain prices, such as soybean and wheat, have risen dramatically.
It is time to stop the madness, and for people to start seeing ethanol for the hoax that it is.

Well said!

[Whos Free]

George N wrote:

<quoted text>
Well said!

I'll second that. Well put Lebowski.

[real information]

The Big Lebowski wrote:

Ethanol is a fraud. Ethanol contains water that distillation cannot remove. As such, it can cause major damage to automobile engines not specifically designed to burn ethanol. The water content of ethanol also risks pipeline corrosion and thus must be shipped by truck, rail car or barge. These shipping methods are far more expensive than pipelines.
Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank. That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities. And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent.
Ethanol is so costly that it wouldn't make it in a free market. That's why Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers. In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.
Ethanol production has driven up the prices of corn-fed livestock, such as beef, chicken and dairy products, and products made from corn, such as cereals. As a result of higher demand for corn, other grain prices, such as soybean and wheat, have risen dramatically.
It is time to stop the madness, and for people to start seeing ethanol for the hoax that it is.

where do you copy this mis-information from?

I've been using ethanol for over fifteen years in all my gas engines ... without any engine damage at all ... how is that possible?

How would you feed a person for a year on 8 bushels of corn?

1700 gallons? could you break that down for us?

Yes, increased demand for corn has caused grocery prices to rise, but not as much as the increased transportation costs, and not as much as the lower value of our dollar, and not as much as the increase in demand for better/more food by the emerging middle classes in countries like China, and probably not as much a gouging by processors and grocers.

It's time to stop perpetuating this mis-information and to start seeing ethanol for the solid, proven solution to our energy crisis that it is.

[real information]

btw ... I liked you movie!

[Ryan]

real information wrote:

<quoted text>
where do you copy this mis-information from?
I've been using ethanol for over fifteen years in all my gas engines ... without any engine damage at all ... how is that possible?
How would you feed a person for a year on 8 bushels of corn?
1700 gallons? could you break that down for us?
Yes, increased demand for corn has caused grocery prices to rise, but not as much as the increased transportation costs, and not as much as the lower value of our dollar, and not as much as the increase in demand for better/more food by the emerging middle classes in countries like China, and probably not as much a gouging by processors and grocers.
It's time to stop perpetuating this mis-information and to start seeing ethanol for the solid, proven solution to our energy crisis that it is.

Sorry, but Lebowski is right about corn-derived ethanol. It's not an efficient way for creating fuel, considering the costs involved and the dent it creates in the food supply. Whether his numbers are exactly right doesn't matter. His point is valid.

Any economist will tell you that ethanol from corn is a losing game. Brazil is doing well with sugar cane ethanol but they aren't diverting food crops for this production. Producing ethanol from sugar is vastly more efficient than producing it from corn ... you get more energy for less money on less land. The ratio of energy obtained versus energy expended to produce is about 7 times higher for sugar ethanol than for corn.

Corn ethanol is just a bad idea.

[The Big Lebowski]

real information wrote:

<quoted text>
where do you copy this mis-information from?
I've been using ethanol for over fifteen years in all my gas engines ... without any engine damage at all ... how is that possible?
How would you feed a person for a year on 8 bushels of corn?
1700 gallons? could you break that down for us?
Yes, increased demand for corn has caused grocery prices to rise, but not as much as the increased transportation costs, and not as much as the lower value of our dollar, and not as much as the increase in demand for better/more food by the emerging middle classes in countries like China, and probably not as much a gouging by processors and grocers.
It's time to stop perpetuating this mis-information and to start seeing ethanol for the solid, proven solution to our energy crisis that it is.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid...

Or, do you hold stock in Archer-Daniels-Midland?

If ethanol is such a great substitute for gasoline, then why are we subsidizing the hell out of it? Seems to me that people would naturally flock to the "better mouse trap" all by themselves. Seriously, let's cut all the subsidies and see what happens to ethanol.

Seriously, it takes 1,700 gallons of water and 51 cents in tax credits to create one gallon of ethanol from corn – at which point the stuff still can’t compete without a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff to block the importation of cheaper sugar-cane ethanol from Brazil.

[Voice of Reality]

I'm with Lebowski and Ryan on this one.

Where is gas sold that is blended with Ethanol anyhow? Neither of my vehicles, an 05 and 06 can run on it.

[George N]

Voice of Reality wrote:

I'm with Lebowski and Ryan on this one.
Where is gas sold that is blended with Ethanol anyhow? Neither of my vehicles, an 05 and 06 can run on it.

There is the 10% ethanol blend, which requires no modification. There is E-85 which is 85% ethanol. Your engine MUST be modified to run on that.

[real information]

Voice of Reality wrote:

I'm with Lebowski and Ryan on this one.
Where is gas sold that is blended with Ethanol anyhow? Neither of my vehicles, an 05 and 06 can run on it.

all vehicles made by American automakers can use E10. Are you driving imports?
I even use ethanol in my 1967 IH truck ... no problems.

[real information]

George N wrote:

<quoted text>
There is the 10% ethanol blend, which requires no modification. There is E-85 which is 85% ethanol. Your engine MUST be modified to run on that.

... or be a 'flex fuel' vehicle to run with no modification.

[real information]

The Big Lebowski wrote:

<quoted text>
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid...
Or, do you hold stock in Archer-Daniels-Midland?
If ethanol is such a great substitute for gasoline, then why are we subsidizing the hell out of it? Seems to me that people would naturally flock to the "better mouse trap" all by themselves. Seriously, let's cut all the subsidies and see what happens to ethanol.
Seriously, it takes 1,700 gallons of water and 51 cents in tax credits to create one gallon of ethanol from corn – at which point the stuff still can’t compete without a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff to block the importation of cheaper sugar-cane ethanol from Brazil.

I hate ADM. I believe they are the ones perpetuating these rumers. Soon they will own all the stills, and you will be paying as much for E85 as you pay for regular gas.
seriously, the 1700 gal figure came from Pimentel's study of the early '80s and has been proven grossly false.

[real information]

The Big Lebowski wrote:

<quoted text>
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid...
Or, do you hold stock in Archer-Daniels-Midland?
If ethanol is such a great substitute for gasoline, then why are we subsidizing the hell out of it? Seems to me that people would naturally flock to the "better mouse trap" all by themselves. Seriously, let's cut all the subsidies and see what happens to ethanol.
Seriously, it takes 1,700 gallons of water and 51 cents in tax credits to create one gallon of ethanol from corn – at which point the stuff still can’t compete without a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff to block the importation of cheaper sugar-cane ethanol from Brazil.

why do we subsidize big oil? Why do we subsidize the airline industry? Why do we subsidize anything?
It was subsidized to get it started, just like any other industry (look in you city's industrial park, there were some killer deals there on land and taxes to attract those employers). Now it is time for the subsidy to end. Did you hear that? I am against supporting the ethanol industry! I just don't think we need to knock ethanol (because it is a good thing for our country) in order to accomplish that.
Using your logic, the electric grid would have never been built. think about it.

[Ahau Kin]

"When Ohio's seven ethanol plants are operating at full capacity, they will use 182 million bushels of corn per year to produce 514 million gallons of ethanol."

I just love these statistics they throw out at us with no context.

To wit: 514 million gallons of ethanol:

Is that a lot? Relative to what, total gasoline usage in Ohio, or usage everywhere? Will this lower the at - pump price of 10% ethanol? How does this figure relate to overall ethanol production of the USA? Of the world?

How adverse will the price increases of pork and other feed corn animals be? Should I worry?

How much hydrocarbon energy is required to produce all that ethanol, expressed in terms of volume?(This many barrels of oil = this much ethanol produced.)

I guess the article is just telling me what they want me to know, not everything I need to know.

[real information]

How many gallons of water does it take to produce a gallon of oil? Are you counting all the rain that fell on the earth when the dinasaurs were roaming around?
Today, how many gallons of water does it take to refine a gallon of gas?
It takes between 3 and 3.5 gallons of water to distill a gallon of ethanol.

[real information]

remember - what is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right.

[George N]

real information wrote:

<quoted text>
... or be a 'flex fuel' vehicle to run with no modification.

I guess I should have said factory or aftermarket modified to be flex-fuel.