It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 151370 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#138190 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the global flood is a physical event.

And I think flying unicorns make good polo ponies.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#138191 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
If you want to co-opt confirm for your own purposes, you can have it . I deal with content. Macro-evolution has not been directly observed, and there is no data which can only be explained by it.

Where do you get your bad information???? Macroevolution HAS been observed and many times.

You have been lied to and have chosen to believe the lie rather than to check it out.

Do you even understand the definition of the word "observed" as it is used in science?

I bet not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation#Obse...
KAB

Wilson, NC

#138192 Aug 24, 2014
TedHOhio wrote:
<quoted text>We have been waiting for years to see your available data. I do so enjoy listening to Creationists of various stripes whining about movies like Noah for not following 'historical fact', as if there is actually any historical fact to follow.
I simply have in mind the Biblical global flood account, including all non-Genesis references to the flood.

“Dinosaurs survived the flood!”

Since: Jan 11

Jesus probably rode dinosaurs!

#138193 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
What type of data did the experts openly acknowledge they went to Pingualuit to get?
You tell me. You seem to think you have a handle on it? Tell us o technically challenged one, instead of reverting to your usual diversionary tactics such as this.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#138194 Aug 24, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
This is incorrect.
Why don't you look things up?
Here is a little help.
http://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/embed.php...
I didn't find anything in your reference identifying the internationally agreed to C14 calibration range.

“Dinosaurs survived the flood!”

Since: Jan 11

Jesus probably rode dinosaurs!

#138195 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You're entitled to your judgment.
I wish I could share some with you, since you have none.

“Dinosaurs survived the flood!”

Since: Jan 11

Jesus probably rode dinosaurs!

#138196 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
One of us is lying, and I know who it is.
We know who it is too. It isn't like you keep it a secret.

“Dinosaurs survived the flood!”

Since: Jan 11

Jesus probably rode dinosaurs!

#138197 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the global flood is a physical event.
Yet you have no evidence. How is that working for you? Oh, yeah. Total FAILURE.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#138198 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I simply have in mind the Biblical global flood account, including all non-Genesis references to the flood.

They all differ and conflict as to the details, timing, duration,..... of the flood(s).

Multiple references leave you with nothing before we ever get to the carcass.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#138199 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't find anything in your reference identifying the internationally agreed to C14 calibration range.
You have a reading comprehension problem. I suggest you read it again.

There is NOT an international C-14 calibration date range.(states that specifically).

C-14 has been calibrated back over 10,000 years with tree ring data alone.


I caught you in another lie.

“Dinosaurs survived the flood!”

Since: Jan 11

Jesus probably rode dinosaurs!

#138200 Aug 24, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
The list of 14 are confirmed via the data.
You can deny all you want, but we were here for the data and the discussions. I don't doubt your side could do better if someone rational was arguing for your slide, however.
If there is someone rational on the pro-flood side, they haven't sent him or her to this forum. They are probably wondering how they can get away from the KAB types without being noticed.

“Dinosaurs survived the flood!”

Since: Jan 11

Jesus probably rode dinosaurs!

#138201 Aug 24, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You have a reading comprehension problem. I suggest you read it again.
There is NOT an international C-14 calibration date range.(states that specifically).
C-14 has been calibrated back over 10,000 years with tree ring data alone.
I caught you in another lie.
Low hanging fruit.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#138202 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Like you, I will believe the Biblical global flood is a fantasy when I judge the data warrants it.
But you have gone beyond that. You are now openly rejecting data that does not fit your scenario.

Otzi, Cheddar, and Paglicci were dated to pre-flood ages and yet have mt-DNA sequences that are highly derived subclades, indicating that these clades and their predecessors had to exist before your claimed Flood. As many of the deep ancestral mutations are point substitutions that have no effect on protein structure anyway, there is no reason for God to artificially "reconstitute" them exactly as before the Flood. So on top of the data denial, you are making up totally implausible special pleading excuses for why the data does not fit your hoped-for scenario.

You are free to judge as you like, of course. And I am free to point out the obvious flaws in the justifications you use to obtain the judgement you want.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#138203 Aug 24, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You never step by stepped getting agreement at each step the first time.
You're thinking of a different 22. Reread my statement carefully. If this is something with which you are unfamiliar I can provide a reference.
Something I don't think you have ever covered is the confidence level and intervals associated with the mutation fixation rates you have used.
You said "What would a rapidly generated mtDNA haptree have to look like, given that the average variation from what has been termed the consensus (conceptual equivalent of median) mtDNA genome amounts to 22 out of over 16,000 nucleotide sites?"

It looks to me like you are using the 22 which I pointed out was the number of subclades in the nested hierarchy from the mt-MRCA for some modern groups. Yet a count of the actual cumulative mutations was closer to 75. This will vary from haplogroup to haplogroup, tracing back to the origin, but I do not see how you could get a median figure of 22. The shortest one I could see was 41 mutations from the origin. So, show the reference by all means.

To your last point, I use the most conservative assumption possible (which is in your favour) when calculating the time it takes for an existing haplotype to be eliminated. In the base case I assume that ALL new mutations remain within and propagate (fix) through the gene pool, giving the most rapid possible diversification of haplotypes. In reality, we would expect 25% of new mutations to disappear in the second generation, 12.5% in the next, 6.25% in the next, and so on, leading to a lower substitution rate and LESS diversification. But I slanted everything possible in your favour as I already said, and STILL it takes more than 6000 years to completely substitute and existing type meaning the early layers of the hap-tree should still be with us 4500 years after a flood. Yet the first 16 layers are missing. Meaning there has been time for them to be replaced by more recent mutations, meaning, yes, more than 100,000 years.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#138204 Aug 25, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
There's no evidence until you provide it. You just made some assertions, none of them new, and provided no confirming data. I'll get interested when you provide such data purported to confirm an assertion correct. BTW, a list is documentary evidence, and anybody can make a list to convey whatever thought is desired. You would have to establish the list as a demonstrated reliable source, like the Bible.
Given that Egyptology is an old established branch of archeology and that as with all scientific endeavours, there is continual competition to find the truth and argument over interpretation until issues are settled by facts, I don't put much stock in your claim. What they "think is desired" is a true understanding of what happened and when, in Ancient Egypt. You almost appear to claim, without directly saying it, that the whole Dynasty list is merely another conspiracy to discredit the Bible. When will you learn?

Contrast this to the Bible itself, where claims are not to be questioned (at least according to fundies like you) and where with no evidence you demand that it be considered a reliable source; well, now you are just being silly. As a source its about as reliable as the Iliad of the Greeks, which correctly pointed to the existence of Troy. So now should I also believe that Achilles was the son of the river goddess Thetis? Why not? The discovery of Troy proves that the Iliad is a demonstrated reliable source!!!

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#138205 Aug 25, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
There's no evidence until you provide it. You just made some assertions, none of them new, and provided no confirming data. I'll get interested when you provide such data purported to confirm an assertion correct. BTW, a list is documentary evidence, and anybody can make a list to convey whatever thought is desired. You would have to establish the list as a demonstrated reliable source, like the Bible.
The only assertions I have made are derived from the data. If the data were different, the assertions would be. Can you point to any assertions I have made that are not backed by the data? Or is that just your baseless excuse for continuing to reject a conclusion you cannot avoid any other way?
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#138206 Aug 25, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the global flood is a physical event.
If the flood is a physical event, where can we find the physical evidence of it?
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#138207 Aug 25, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
One of us is lying, and I know who it is.
There is one thing I DO KNOW: you don't have the scientific knowledge to be expected from an engineer.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#138208 Aug 25, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I simply have in mind the Biblical global flood account, including all non-Genesis references to the flood.
You simply have not a single shred of physical data available for you physical flood.
If a physical event of devastating proportions (mass extinction of major parts of life, geological processes of astonishing and unprecedented, global scale) occurs there should be worldwide traces observable.

Please your data confirming this (this is a question in case you don't notice).
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#138209 Aug 25, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't find anything in your reference identifying the internationally agreed to C14 calibration range.
In normal English please, WHAT didn't you find in Dogen's reference source?

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