It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ... Full Story

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120288 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Get use to disappointment.

Surely you mean "Get used to disappointment", don't you ole bean?

I am very used to you disappointing. My search for an intelligent creationist goes on; perhaps forever. As does my search for a flying unicorn.


Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You will be happy to know that I am disappointed that you are irrational.
I am disappointed that you seldom provide data.
I am disappointed that you don't understand data that is provide.
I am disappointed that you run an hide rather than address issue.
I am disappointed that you do not understand science.
I am disappointed that you lie to defend your beliefs (even if the person being lied to is mainly yourself, it is still lying).
I am disappointed that you are so brainwashed by your cult that you cannot see the obvious fact that they are wrong in their dogma.
and I am disappointed in myself that I once believed that you were bright enough to be taught and honest enough to learn even though you were steeped in ignorance and dishonesty at that moment.
I am usually a better judge of character.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120289 Jul 27, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I agree with Dogen, but I approach it from a more optimistic view. I don't expect much from you and get all that I expect and less.
Though your confession above is an odd turn of events. I can only hope that it is just a piece in another ploy to twist what is posted on here in a transparent effort of denial and self-aggrandizement.


I see you have discerned a great deal about our little friend KAB in a relatively short period of time.

"a transparent effort of denial and self-aggrandizement". One can't ask for a better short description of KAB than that!


“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120290 Jul 27, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The actual link I sent you a day or two back showing the library of haplotype families IS the data confirming that observed genetic diversity could not have occurred in the last 5000 years.
So no, I am not merely making assertions. I am offering you both an exploration of the logic of how it works - as per our discussions, which are not complete - and the underlying data (DATA! KAB, DATA!) of the existing haplotype families as per that link.
Sorry to mess with your little "DATA DATA DATA" gimmick, but I am calling your tiresome bluff. When you examine the data PROVIDED along with an understanding of haplotype dispersion,(i.e the DATA and the LOGIC)you will have no choice but to accept that there is no way that the human population (or most other animals) was reduced to the numbers given in the Noah myth.
Just warning you in advance. Time for you to invent a diversion fast, if you want to save yourself. How about that good old delaying tactic of misconstruing what I say and wasting a good week or so as I try to sort it out? That is one of your favourites eh?

I don't think you understand. KAB's request for data is like a prostitute demanding a more vigilant vice squad. You have to have a feel for irony.

But unlike the prostitute, he has no idea how to deal with what he as asked for.


“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120291 Jul 27, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No its not code for that.
Its straight out saying that different measures will give different absolute quantities, but that is not the relevant factor. Its the relative amount that matters in a comparison.
Say we look at the different ways of measuring the similarity for a chimp and a human genome, and one measure give 96% and the other 98%. Now we compare them to a gorilla genome. We find that on the first measuring basis, both human and chimp DNA are 94% similar to a gorilla, and on the second, human and chimp DNA are 97% similar to a gorilla. Either way the relative ditance is maintained.
i.e. human and chimp DNA are more similar to each other than they are to a gorilla's. And that is true by every yardstick.
In the case of the bottleneck, its known that different parts of the genome have different mutation rates. So long as we are consistent in our comparison, we will get consistent results.
You are, as usual, grasping at the only straw you seem to have left which is "scientists are dumb".

If there were not more than one measure the creotard response would be "how do you know that measure is right?"

Disingenuousness is a staple of the creotard arsenal.

KAB

Taipei, Taiwan

#120292 Jul 27, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The actual link I sent you a day or two back showing the library of haplotype families IS the data confirming that observed genetic diversity could not have occurred in the last 5000 years.
So no, I am not merely making assertions. I am offering you both an exploration of the logic of how it works - as per our discussions, which are not complete - and the underlying data (DATA! KAB, DATA!) of the existing haplotype families as per that link.
Sorry to mess with your little "DATA DATA DATA" gimmick, but I am calling your tiresome bluff. When you examine the data PROVIDED along with an understanding of haplotype dispersion,(i.e the DATA and the LOGIC)you will have no choice but to accept that there is no way that the human population (or most other animals) was reduced to the numbers given in the Noah myth.
Just warning you in advance. Time for you to invent a diversion fast, if you want to save yourself. How about that good old delaying tactic of misconstruing what I say and wasting a good week or so as I try to sort it out? That is one of your favourites eh?
Let's just stick with the hap map, and you identify the part that confirms the variety couldn't have occurred in 5000 years.
KAB

Taipei, Taiwan

#120293 Jul 27, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yawn. Yes those dumb scientists never thought of any of that. Duh, KAB, just DUH.
And still we have a case where animals quite similar to the cheetah have far greater haplotype variation indicating no recent bottleneck. Similar creatures, similar reproductive rates, similar lifestyles more or less. No bottleneck. No flood induced reduction of the population to a pair. End of story.
And still we have a case where no conceivable amount of stretching assumptions or special pleading will condense the human haplotype variation within and order of magnitude of the compression in timeline you require.
I gave you the link. The DATA. Now use your head.
You will soon realise that the only solution available to you is special pleading + magic. Failing that, you can always rely on conspiracy.
Just explain the potentially 20 generation hap map.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120294 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's just stick with the hap map, and you identify the part that confirms the variety couldn't have occurred in 5000 years.

So you have nothing again.

BTW, why should we believe anything you say.




So JW's are known, proven and ADMITTED liars.

What is your response to the woman who the watchtower threatened with having her children taken away from her and told her the court did not have the right to know the truth of her being a good mother?

Lets stay on THAT subject, shall we?

I bet you don't respond.

I bet you are too chicken to watch the video.

Come on! I won't tell on you!

Do you fear the watchtower that much?




Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The actual link I sent you a day or two back showing the library of haplotype families IS the data confirming that observed genetic diversity could not have occurred in the last 5000 years.
So no, I am not merely making assertions. I am offering you both an exploration of the logic of how it works - as per our discussions, which are not complete - and the underlying data (DATA! KAB, DATA!) of the existing haplotype families as per that link.
Sorry to mess with your little "DATA DATA DATA" gimmick, but I am calling your tiresome bluff. When you examine the data PROVIDED along with an understanding of haplotype dispersion,(i.e the DATA and the LOGIC)you will have no choice but to accept that there is no way that the human population (or most other animals) was reduced to the numbers given in the Noah myth.
Just warning you in advance. Time for you to invent a diversion fast, if you want to save yourself. How about that good old delaying tactic of misconstruing what I say and wasting a good week or so as I try to sort it out? That is one of your favourites eh?
KAB

Taipei, Taiwan

#120295 Jul 27, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No its not code for that.
Its straight out saying that different measures will give different absolute quantities, but that is not the relevant factor. Its the relative amount that matters in a comparison.
Say we look at the different ways of measuring the similarity for a chimp and a human genome, and one measure give 96% and the other 98%. Now we compare them to a gorilla genome. We find that on the first measuring basis, both human and chimp DNA are 94% similar to a gorilla, and on the second, human and chimp DNA are 97% similar to a gorilla. Either way the relative ditance is maintained.
i.e. human and chimp DNA are more similar to each other than they are to a gorilla's. And that is true by every yardstick.
In the case of the bottleneck, its known that different parts of the genome have different mutation rates. So long as we are consistent in our comparison, we will get consistent results.
You are, as usual, grasping at the only straw you seem to have left which is "scientists are dumb".
Why give a hypothetical example instead of examining/analyzing the actual data right in front of you?

Scientists are not dumb. They are human. That's why I separate data from opinions. Opinions differ, but thanks to the scientists, data is available and the same for all to examine. As I indicated, we both have the same data before us, but you chose not to use it. Why is that, do you think? Couldn't you make your point with the data given?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120296 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Just explain the potentially 20 generation hap map.

Can't you focus for one second?

What is wrong with your brain (besides having had it washed)?

Can you respond to what Chimney posted or not?

If you want to understand hapmaps then I recommend google.

That is www.google.com if you are unfamiliar with it.


Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yawn. Yes those dumb scientists never thought of any of that. Duh, KAB, just DUH.
And still we have a case where animals quite similar to the cheetah have far greater haplotype variation indicating no recent bottleneck. Similar creatures, similar reproductive rates, similar lifestyles more or less. No bottleneck. No flood induced reduction of the population to a pair. End of story.
And still we have a case where no conceivable amount of stretching assumptions or special pleading will condense the human haplotype variation within and order of magnitude of the compression in timeline you require.
I gave you the link. The DATA. Now use your head.
You will soon realise that the only solution available to you is special pleading + magic. Failing that, you can always rely on conspiracy.

“The strength of science is”

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#120297 Jul 27, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I see you have discerned a great deal about our little friend KAB in a relatively short period of time.
"a transparent effort of denial and self-aggrandizement". One can't ask for a better short description of KAB than that!
I like to think I am a quick study, but it helps that others who know better are willing to communicate that knowledge. It also helps to see how poorly KAB responds when you or Chimney or others provide these logical, on point, data-packed posts. No one can be as arrogant as he is and at the same time be so afraid of facts and reality and still be considered rational. I don't think he sees how transparent his efforts are. I think he believes he has us cornered.

“The strength of science is”

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#120298 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Why give a hypothetical example instead of examining/analyzing the actual data right in front of you?
Scientists are not dumb. They are human. That's why I separate data from opinions. Opinions differ, but thanks to the scientists, data is available and the same for all to examine. As I indicated, we both have the same data before us, but you chose not to use it. Why is that, do you think? Couldn't you make your point with the data given?
Why don't you explain what the data is you lying sack of crap. If you have this grasp of the data that no one else has then show some balls and explain it. All you are doing is claiming you know something and then rambling on about how others don't see what you see without showing what you see. Makes me think you see nothing and are stalling.

Give us an explanation OH toothless one.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120299 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Why give a hypothetical example instead of examining/analyzing the actual data right in front of you?
Scientists are not dumb. They are human. That's why I separate data from opinions. Opinions differ, but thanks to the scientists, data is available and the same for all to examine. As I indicated, we both have the same data before us, but you chose not to use it. Why is that, do you think? Couldn't you make your point with the data given?

You have a reading problem, don't you.

I know your cult teaches lying, but I bet others are better at it.

EVERYONE here knows of your deceptive practices.

EVERYONE here knows you have no response to the actual data.

EVERYONE here knows that if you wanted to know you could probably look it up yourself (though that is not completely certain).

EVERYONE here knows that you know nothing about science.

EVERYONE here knows that you have already lost against MULTIPLE lines of evidence.

EVERYONE here knows you lie to your elders and claim your time here on your "points to get into heaven scorecard".

And Yahweh knows it too.

p.s. Yahweh is the correct translation/pronunciation of God's name (YHWH) and the name/pronunciation was NEVER lost. That is just another lie your cult tells you. Look it up.

jehovah is a late 10th century translation mistake by as Spanish monk.

Look it up.

Oh, that's right, your not allowed to! Disfellowship you know.
KAB

Taipei, Taiwan

#120300 Jul 27, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, more dishonesty. Remember it is the watchtower (also known as Satan) that is the author of all lies.
Now, if you could prove that a global flood could occur, as it is narrated in Genesis, without affecting genetic diversity in ANY of the affected species....
But you can't do that, can you?
By definition, the global flood had to affect the genetic diversity of all organisms whose numbers were reduced to at most just a few.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120301 Jul 27, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I like to think I am a quick study, but it helps that others who know better are willing to communicate that knowledge. It also helps to see how poorly KAB responds when you or Chimney or others provide these logical, on point, data-packed posts. No one can be as arrogant as he is and at the same time be so afraid of facts and reality and still be considered rational. I don't think he sees how transparent his efforts are. I think he believes he has us cornered.

Psychologically speaking.....

Hey! Wake up!

seriously, psychologically speaking arrogance is usually the mask that hides low self esteem from the ego.

And no, he does not know how completely transparent he is EVEN AFTER WE TELL HIM! But remember how important this is to him. If we lose an argument we have just lost an argument. But his whole world is riding on the outcome of this argument. I am being pretty literal here. If he loses and has to internally accept that he lost then suddenly the infallible WATCHTOWER (Gods budding global government) has failed. That means his (nearly psychotic) religious beliefs are wrong. He has his whole life invested in that delusion. And if he leaves his cult they pull everything. The shut off his friends, his social system and any family that might be under their control.

And if he is one of the watchtower member that actually has a real job, he loses any business contacts he might have had through the cults members. They will not be allowed to talk to him or even acknowledge him. As watchtower members are not allowed to have contact outside the cult he loses ALL of his friends and all family in the cult. His whole support system ripped away from him.

Yet millions have left the cult and gone through this. Best friends for 20 years won't return calls. Pretty ugly. But they end up better off. There is a strong community of former JW cult members out there and most end up preaching against the watchtower and it is almost a given that former members will work to help other former members.

But he is not there yet. To him this is nearly life or death.

He must win, at least in his own mind.




“The strength of science is”

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#120302 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
By definition, the global flood had to affect the genetic diversity of all organisms whose numbers were reduced to at most just a few.
Still waiting for you explanation of how this hypothetical flood would show up in the genetics of extant populations. I predict I will be waiting for a long time.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120303 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
By definition, the global flood had to affect the genetic diversity of all organisms whose numbers were reduced to at most just a few.

So where is your fallback. You would not admit this much if you did not have a fallback.

How do you explain the biodiversity of species that are so diverse that they must have hundreds of millions of generations since their LCA with others of the same species?

How do you explain how the most recent bottleneck in humans was over 50,000 years ago and the last major bottleneck was about 70k years ago.


KAB

Taipei, Taiwan

#120304 Jul 27, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You lie in the full light of day. Did he say it was his opinion?
Um.... no!
You better hit the streets and earn some points so you can get into heaven. You certainly are not earning any here.
Oh, I forgot about the invisible masses you are converting.
Maybe there are subliminal messages in your posts.
I may have wrongly concluded MF was comparing my opinion to the scientist's.
KAB

Taipei, Taiwan

#120305 Jul 27, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
So you have nothing again.
BTW, why should we believe anything you say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =giZs1js__LoXX
So JW's are known, proven and ADMITTED liars.
What is your response to the woman who the watchtower threatened with having her children taken away from her and told her the court did not have the right to know the truth of her being a good mother?
Lets stay on THAT subject, shall we?
I bet you don't respond.
I bet you are too chicken to watch the video.
Come on! I won't tell on you!
Do you fear the watchtower that much?
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The actual link I sent you a day or two back showing the library of haplotype families IS the data confirming that observed genetic diversity could not have occurred in the last 5000 years.
So no, I am not merely making assertions. I am offering you both an exploration of the logic of how it works - as per our discussions, which are not complete - and the underlying data (DATA! KAB, DATA!) of the existing haplotype families as per that link.
Sorry to mess with your little "DATA DATA DATA" gimmick, but I am calling your tiresome bluff. When you examine the data PROVIDED along with an understanding of haplotype dispersion,(i.e the DATA and the LOGIC)you will have no choice but to accept that there is no way that the human population (or most other animals) was reduced to the numbers given in the Noah myth.
Just warning you in advance. Time for you to invent a diversion fast, if you want to save yourself. How about that good old delaying tactic of misconstruing what I say and wasting a good week or so as I try to sort it out? That is one of your favourites eh?
You have acknowledged you only consider one side of the issue. That's not my approach.

“The strength of science is”

Since: Jan 11

founded in facts.

#120306 Jul 27, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You have acknowledged you only consider one side of the issue. That's not my approach.
You have acknowledged that you can't refute the evidence against the occurrence of a global flood. You have acknowledged that you lie to maintain this charade against the facts that refute a global flood.

I agree with you on these points.

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#120307 Jul 28, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's just stick with the hap map, and you identify the part that confirms the variety couldn't have occurred in 5000 years.
No, becuase unless you can understand how new haplotypes are generated and the odds of them propagating through a population, you will not understand the significance of the data in the hap map.

To cut a long story short the maths and population parameters show a general minimum time for ONE new variant to become established as around 3500 years.

FYI the test site used for the mapping is a group of 440 bases with a new hap generated once every 30000 bases but as you saw in our previous work the chances of each new variant becoming established in a populatoon is extrenely low. Baysian analysis is what gives the odds of once every 3500 years.

The hap map in its entirety is not remotely possible based on an extreme bottleneck 4500 years ago.

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