It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 166348 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110217 Feb 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's a reference and a quote from it indicating the accuracy of the cheetah bottleneck estimate,
"If the mutation rate of the feline FCZ8
family is comparable to the above four rates, the time
required to produce the cheetah's level of variation would be
estimated respectively at 3,529, 6,000, 11,765, and 12,766
years."
In short, it could have been 4500 years ago. What's next?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4...

So the Data says it would have taken longer. But you assert that it would not have taken as long.

And a cheetah is one of your best case examples.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110218 Feb 14, 2013
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>Complexity is not measurable?

That is correct. It is a relative term. It is an adj., a word used to modify another word. It has no meaning on its own.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110219 Feb 14, 2013
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>The supernatural is not obserbable. If it was it could be examined by science, but science is unqualified to deal with the supernatural by definition. You act as if everything can be explained by science. Far from it sister. Please explain how evolution accounts for consciousness.

If the supernatural is not observable then why should we believe it exists?

The fact that we do not have a good grasp on consciousness does not mean that there is no biological or evolutionary reason for it. That assumption is Appeal to Ignorance.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110220 Feb 14, 2013
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>You can believe that if you want too. I have another take on it!

Your 'take' is a product of modern theology and is not the understanding that people at that time and place would have had.
15th Dalai Lama

Placitas, NM

#110221 Feb 14, 2013
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>Complexity is not measurable?
Good morning, marksman. I hope you and your loved ones are well.

It appears elohim doesn't have the firm grasp of statistical mechanics that you and I share.

God bless you.
15th Dalai Lama

Placitas, NM

#110222 Feb 14, 2013
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>The supernatural is not obserbable. If it was it could be examined by science, but science is unqualified to deal with the supernatural by definition. You act as if everything can be explained by science. Far from it sister. Please explain how evolution accounts for consciousness.
Evolution accounts for consciousness just as Matthew does, just without that blessed confusing layer.

Matthew 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
15th Dalai Lama

Placitas, NM

#110223 Feb 14, 2013
Blessed are the confused, for they shall inherit right wing politics.
-- I said that.
KAB

United States

#110225 Feb 14, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>But you insist on "global flood" in English.
Sorry, Sunshine, that horse don't jump.
No, I don't.
KAB

United States

#110226 Feb 14, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Hmm.
6,000 years ago the Sumerian civilization was already at its height.
Not without confirming data. You can state anything you want, but can you confirm it as true?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110227 Feb 14, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Good morning, marksman. I hope you and your loved ones are well.
It appears elohim doesn't have the firm grasp of statistical mechanics that you and I share.
God bless you.

LOL. Been missing your humor DL!

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110228 Feb 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I don't.

I love this. Disingenuous to the core, but not an outright lie.

Kudos!
KAB

United States

#110229 Feb 14, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
And is your understanding greater or less than that of the experts in the field? Why should you trust YOUR understanding and not that of people who have devoted, collectively, tens of thousands of years studying and learning about this very subject? I'm not saying to blindly accept, but you do recognize that the odds of the ignorant being right about something about which they are ignorant versus the odds of the expert being right about something about which they are expert are inversely proportionate, yes? You don't go to a doctor, ask him what he thinks, and then compare that with your personal understanding of disease/injury/etc. and decide if you're going to overrule his judgement, do you? You might seek out another expert, but would you simply allow yourself to use your own ill-informed understanding to trump the expert opinion of someone educated in that field, much less a few, much less hundreds, much less tens of thousands? The odds of you being right and them being wrong are so preposterous that you must be wildly delusional to give it a modicum of consideration. That you think you should accept your own ignorance over the knowledge of the world says a lot about your standards of evidence. Once again, it's "whatever I say must be true until someone proves me wrong." That's invalid reasoning. You should always begin with the premise that your personal understanding is wrong. As soon as you begin doing that, you'll stop being such a horse's ass.
It's the experts' info that I have related. I do that since I'm not an expert in the field. For that matter, what is the expert source of your "tens of thousands" of experts in this field reference? Also, what multitude of experts has been provided stating that there could not have been a bottleneck 4500 years ago? For my part, I'm going to withhold judgment until I review the experts' data as I always do. You might want to try this approach, but presently I doubt it.

BTW, I have on occasion opposed doctors after assimilating their expert info and advice, and it has proven to be the wise course. In case you're interested, the appropriate process is to gather expert info, then reason thru it and draw your conclusions, which may not be the same as theirs, yet still supported by their data.
KAB

United States

#110230 Feb 14, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
So the Data says it would have taken longer. But you assert that it would not have taken as long.
And a cheetah is one of your best case examples.
Is 3529 greater or less than 4500?

As to the cheetah being best case, didn't I ask "What's next"?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110231 Feb 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Not without confirming data. You can state anything you want, but can you confirm it as true?

Yep.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110232 Feb 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text> BTW, I have on occasion opposed doctors after assimilating their expert info and advice, and it has proven to be the wise course.

My daughters mother-in-law did this too. She is now dying.

[QUOTE who="KAB"]<quoted text> In case you're interested, the appropriate process is to gather expert info, then reason thru it and draw your conclusions, which may not be the same as theirs, yet still supported by their data.

No, you have to have a reason to question an expert. The legitimate reasons to do so are certainly quite numerous. Base incredulity is not one of them, however.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#110233 Feb 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Is 3529 greater or less than 4500?
As to the cheetah being best case, didn't I ask "What's next"?

As you failed with the Cheetah data we would most enjoy continuing to rub your nose in it till you change the subject.

Did you take all the dates as equal or did you pick the one you liked?

Did you note the different methodology for the dates or did you just pick the one you liked?

Since: Apr 12

Taizhou, China

#110234 Feb 14, 2013
I found the passage which you are referring to.
However, it goes on to say "Because demographic considerations would make the survival of a few individuals from such a catastrophe unlikely, a series of less severe bottlenecks spread over time and over geographic space is more realistic."

Here are some quotes from the article:

"The back calculation ... supports the placement of the bottleneck on the order of the end of the Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago."

"The results support an ancient bottleneck 6000-20,000 years before the present."
KAB

United States

#110235 Feb 14, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu
That's not data. It's a reference to data, and even then the data is only credited with suggesting, not confirming.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#110236 Feb 14, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Hmm.
6,000 years ago the Sumerian civilization was already at its height.
Ah the Ubaid. Sumerians are presumed to have entered later.
Ubaid later sttled in UVA. uhh...language bump that would be the unified arab emirates.
The only arab country i know that had archeologists scoure the place, insists on C14 dating, and are now proud of their progeny.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#110237 Feb 14, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu
Ah jumped the gun.
Execellent.
By 2000 BC the demise of the Sumerian civilisitation set in.

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