Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72043 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66930 Feb 6, 2014
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former---So if making fun of someone's god doesn't degrade their religion, what does?
Painting swastikas? Is that where you would draw the line?
Frijoles----I draw the line at hate speech. Jest is NOT hate.
HughBe----Jamaican proverb says: "What is joke to you is death to me."
Frijoles---Swastikas are a symbol of hate.
HughBe--- Agree and so are "Jeebus" and "Xians"
Later
and so are "Judaites"

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66931 Feb 6, 2014
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe------My circumcision is of the heart. I agree with most of their beliefs.
Frijoles----Actually you dont,. You spend your time here despising Rabbinic Judaism
HughBe---- Based on your words, I take it that your gods do not despise things that are corrupt and this is part of what separates me from them. Now, by the grace of the God of the bible I shall ALWAYS despise corruption. Judaism is CORRUPT is my opinion but I yield to the prophet Moses who says "UTTERLY CORRUPT".
Question, who do you believe Moses or your god-men/RABBIS?
Please understand that they oppose Moses.
but yet you "share" some of the beliefs of those Christian Hebrews.

Do you know what hypocritical means?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66932 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Evangelical politicians in the US attempt to do it all the time. Where do you think the impetus for the following comes from...
- Laws to allow the teaching of ID/Creationism in public schools
- Banning gay marriage
- Banning abortion
- Banning contraceptive coverage from Obamacare
- Adding "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance
- Attempting to pass legislation to add prayers back in public schools
The list goes on...
There are plenty of theocrats on public office. Mike Huckabee has not been shy about his belief that this nation would be better served under a Christian theocracy.
Good points, but 2 thoughts come to mind:

1. People find things in the bible to support whatever it is they already think about something. So what come first? The backwards ways or the religion? So what's the true motivation? Religion? Or homophobia? Anti- sex in general (so that would rule out abortion and birth control)? And then are those who just don't anything to change, ever!

True, the prayer, creationism, and the "under god" are pure religion.

2. So they vote to support the way they want things to be.

And we do the same thing. The would call us god-less and lost. We would say "practice beliefs on your own time, at home, at church." Not in public. Not in front of town hall etc.

But to them god and country go together. It's all part of the identity.(Separation of church and state be damned.)

My point is only that everyone votes their own interests.

And we, as atheists are clearly in the minority.

We could easily become a theocracy. The numbers of evangelicals is mind-boggling.

Huckabee scares the hell out of me.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66933 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow - seems as though you really see this issue in black and white.
No such thing as mean-spirited humor? A joke that hurts someone's feelings?
A joke that disrespects a group, gender, race, religion, ethnic heritage?
(Note that I am playing devil's advocate. I enjoy a very wide range of humor. But not everyone does.)
Would a funny cartoon of Mohamed be ok?
Is the only test whether YOU would find something offensive?
My two cents (because I love butting in to other people's conversations): Everyone has the right to be offended (over anything). No one has the right to prevent others from offending them. Look no further than how anti-blasphemy laws have been abused to understand my position.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66934 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Makes sense. It's pretty much what I've been saying all along. And to his list of religious words, I would add worship, divine, spiritual, and probably a few more I can't think of right now.
Which leads me back to my earlier views. Religion and Science are separate entities. They can be combined, imperfectly, of course (I could be a religious but still be a scientist if I follow its methods, and a scientist could study SOME aspects of religion such as the neuroscience on a biological level).

But they go off in different directions to address different questions. Science offers (and proves with the aid of a vocabulary) explanations as to "how", while religion offers a vocabulary to describe perceptions that by definition are difficult to describe scientifically, and to address questions such as purpose, which are too squishy to be operationalized by science.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66935 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep, read about it last night. Pot, meet Kettle :-)
My thoughts as well.

Little late for Roberston to attone*.

Probably its all about an internal power dispute anyhow. Though apparently he has knocked Ham before in the past as well.

*Is attonement one of your religious terms as well?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66936 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I see no problem with making fun of religion, any more than any other topic. Why must religion get a free pass?
Making fun of religion in general is an actual pastime for me.

I've even compared its adherents with mental patients, with original credit to Bill Maher.
(Consider the definition for psychosis...)

Not exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about a more one-on-one type situation.

"Your Jesus wore a dress." "You people are all idiots."

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66937 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Good points, but 2 thoughts come to mind:
1. People find things in the bible to support whatever it is they already think about something. So what come first? The backwards ways or the religion? So what's the true motivation? Religion? Or homophobia? Anti- sex in general (so that would rule out abortion and birth control)? And then are those who just don't anything to change, ever!
.
HEY! Thats been my view.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>2. So they vote to support the way they want things to be.
And we do the same thing. The would call us god-less and lost. We would say "practice beliefs on your own time, at home, at church." Not in public. Not in front of town hall etc.
But to them god and country go together. It's all part of the identity.(Separation of church and state be damned.)
Thats a really good point!
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66938 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I admit I am offering reflective rationalizations - never really parsed the issue out
I would agree with COR to a point that it does depend whether you are directing it to a people or a concept. But I think intent (i.e. the emotion attached to it) also matters.
If I insult your religion, but I didnt mean to, either because you are thinner skinned, or because time has changed the standards and it is now considered insulting (i.e. PC catches up), I think that this is not the biggest sin in the world. However, if I insult your religion KNOWING I am going to insult it, then that is wrong.
In case of the prophet cartoon - I could argue that in some cases it is not meant as an insult (and in some cases it is), and standards have not changed (i.e its a standard of free speech)- however knowing that it WILL be received as an insult, then I would put this example as more as a political issue than an interpersonal issue. Its a gray area, for sure.
Very rational. Perhaps you should have considered law school.

I sometime think I should have. Good enough for Dad. First in his class.

“Here again in The Torah”

Since: Nov 13

Denver Colorado 80218

#66939 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
On the Wednesday edition of his TV show,“The 700 Club,” Robertson indirectly implored Ham to put a sock in it, criticizing Ham’s view that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.
“Let’s face it, there was a bishop [James Ussher]… who added up the dates listed in Genesis and he came up with the world had been around for 6,000 years,” Robertson began.“There ain’t no way that’s possible … To say that it all came about in 6,000 years is just nonsense and I think it’s time we come off of that stuff and say this isn’t possible.”
“We’ve got to be realistic that the dating of Bishop Ussher just doesn’t comport with anything that’s found in science,” Robertson continued,“and you can’t just totally deny the geological formations that are out there.”
“Let’s be real,” Robertson begged,“let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/05/pat_robertson...
rabbee: well who you believe in, is your g-d/s or G-D. pick one, G-D or science?

just because a religious group, calls themselves scientist. does not mean they, do not lie and make up their own religious myths.

and actually the length, of The Torah session is 6818 years. as Adam always does, appear twice in the same Scroll. Once as both Grandpa/Grandma, and once as Grandpa and Grandma, because this is what it says in The Torah. and The G-D of Only TheTorah, never lies like all of you do about this here in IT just aaagain.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66940 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Very rational. Perhaps you should have considered law school.
I sometime think I should have. Good enough for Dad. First in his class.
Most lawyers I know,(and I work often with them professionally) are unhappy with their choice of profession. Client relations, staff management, and cash flow are major issues. Law school apparently forgot to tell them they would be running a business first, and practicing law second.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66941 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Making fun of religion in general is an actual pastime for me.
I've even compared its adherents with mental patients, with original credit to Bill Maher.
(Consider the definition for psychosis...)
."
The older I get, the more I learn that superficialities (i.e.things like modes of dress and outward expression) may, or may not, be connected what really goes on in one's heart. Its impossible to know from the outside. Therefore the bizarreness is really beyond the point.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66942 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
..."You people are all idiots."...
Again, this is attacking the person, not the idea. Something I typically frown upon, unless the other person did the attacking first.

Mocking religion has it uses. Look what happens when people take their religion too seriously. Violence and death because someone drew a picture of Mohammad? People need to be desensitized to the things they take offense at. They need to deal with the emotions of being offended and stop behaving like petulant children.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66943 Feb 6, 2014
former res wrote:
Good points, but 2 thoughts come to mind:
1. People find things in the bible to support whatever it is they already think about something. So what come first? The backwards ways or the religion? So what's the true motivation? Religion? Or homophobia? Anti- sex in general (so that would rule out abortion and birth control)?
I think both.

There are some people that have inherent prejudices, and use religion as an excuse to justify them.(Bad people doing bad things with or without religion)

But then there is a subset of people who are genuinely good and initially devoid of such prejudices, but are compelled to support such prejudices because they are convinced by their religion that it's the right thing to do (Good people doing bad things because of religion).
former res wrote:
2. So they vote to support the way they want things to be.
And we do the same thing. The would call us god-less and lost. We would say "practice beliefs on your own time, at home, at church." Not in public. Not in front of town hall etc.
But to them god and country go together. It's all part of the identity.(Separation of church and state be damned.)
Yes, but our position is verifiably supported by the Constitution. Our position is inherently neutral. Worship whatever you want, just leave the government out of it. Of course, to Fox viewers, this translates to xtian persecution.
former res wrote:
My point is only that everyone votes their own interests.
And we, as atheists are clearly in the minority.
We could easily become a theocracy. The numbers of evangelicals is mind-boggling.
Huckabee scares the hell out of me.
I personally think their days are numbered. The younger generations are increasingly less religious, and most polls are reflecting this shift. Time will tell.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66944 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Which leads me back to my earlier views. Religion and Science are separate entities. They can be combined, imperfectly, of course (I could be a religious but still be a scientist if I follow its methods, and a scientist could study SOME aspects of religion such as the neuroscience on a biological level).
But they go off in different directions to address different questions. Science offers (and proves with the aid of a vocabulary) explanations as to "how", while religion offers a vocabulary to describe perceptions that by definition are difficult to describe scientifically, and to address questions such as purpose, which are too squishy to be operationalized by science.
Science can offer us clues into why humans need/want religion.

Regarding the perceptions that you say religion helps us address, again, science can offer its take on it by claiming and studying them as manifestations of psychological or social constructs.

Likewise, regarding purpose, that is a subjective attribute we humans layer on to our existence. But, through the study of psychology, sociology, neuroscience, etc., science can attempt to understand the drive for purpose, even if none really exists. Ultimately, purpose becomes whatever we want it to be.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66945 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I personally think their days are numbered. The younger generations are increasingly less religious, and most polls are reflecting this shift. Time will tell.
I dont think they are less religious, rather I think the younger generation is less likely to adopt the collateral BS that goes along with fundamentalist strands of religions. For example, there has been much in the news about (younger?) evangelical Christians who believe in climate change and resultant advocacy. And also those that carry no stigma about homosexuality.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66946 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Science can offer us clues into why humans need/want religion.
Regarding the perceptions that you say religion helps us address, again, science can offer its take on it by claiming and studying them as manifestations of psychological or social constructs.
Likewise, regarding purpose, that is a subjective attribute we humans layer on to our existence. But, through the study of psychology, sociology, neuroscience, etc., science can attempt to understand the drive for purpose, even if none really exists. Ultimately, purpose becomes whatever we want it to be.
Sure, science can tell us something about HOW the religious impulse functions. But it has nothing to offer regarding the EXPRESSION of the religious impulse. Nor can it offer any speculation regarding the meaning or purpose of life other than on the micro-operational level. Yes, I believe evolution can explain HOW the species has differentiated, but it offers nothing as to a purpose of why we are here in the first place other than (religious?) speculation and perhaps an internal reframing of the issue to meet its vocabulary.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66947 Feb 6, 2014
former res---We give money to a few charities.How do you "give back?"

HughBe--- Friend, I never "give back" much to your disappointment.

Former---Why gender matter? Does it to you?

HughBe--- YES. It matters because women are more in need of help, speaking physically.

Former---They are: 2 widows and one elderly couple.

HughBe--- I speak from memory only, previously did you say 3 persons?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66948 Feb 6, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
And this is why we have thousands of sects of xtianity, not to mention all the variations of all the other religions... Seems no one can come to agreement on anything.
HughBe----Robertson lacks understanding and the same for the other fellow. Also is Robbie really saying that God could not create ALL things in a SECOND or shorter? The fellow Robbie is senile.

COR---And this is why we have thousands of sects of xtianity, not to mention all the variations of all the other religions... Seems no one can come to agreement on anything.

HughBe---- Correct me if I am wrong, my memory tells me that you are either an atheist or an agnostic and if I am correct please explain your emotional,disrespectful and HATEFUL description of Christianity.

I need a couple of verses-- "Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Isaiah 8

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66949 Feb 6, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont think they are less religious, rather I think the younger generation is less likely to adopt the collateral BS that goes along with fundamentalist strands of religions. For example, there has been much in the news about (younger?) evangelical Christians who believe in climate change and resultant advocacy. And also those that carry no stigma about homosexuality.
But religiosity IS dropping, and not just among the fundamentalist strands.

http://tinyurl.com/d49zmd2

From the article:

"According to the global index, there has been a notable decline in religiosity worldwide.

... according to trending data, religiosity has fallen by 9 points globally since 2005 and the number of people who identify as atheist rose from 4 percent to 7 percent."

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