Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72037 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66807 Feb 4, 2014
Are any of you going to watch the debate between the Science Guy and the guy that built the Creationism museum?

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2014/0...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66808 Feb 4, 2014
I found my judgements! the window was projecting to on the top of the page - necessitating a scroll up to find it. Weird.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66809 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I define religion as mans response to his perception of God. So religion always manmade,
What is at the root of the questioning here is whether the perception is real or not.
Right. We can certainly think we are perceiving something, even if it doesn't exist. Correct?

And we can still build a religion around that false perception, again, driven strictly by personal psychology and/or group sociology. No?

So it sounds like you are saying that religion really just becomes a tool to help us deal with our perception of God, But, if he's not real, do you think that devalues religion, or do you think it can still flourish with the knowledge that God didn't exist?

(real or not). So religion is manmade, and potentially, so is God.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66810 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
Are any of you going to watch the debate between the Science Guy and the guy that built the Creationism museum?
http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2014/0...
Nope. I don't think Bill Nye should have accepted. It's giving an air of credibility to this bozo (Ken Hamm) where none is deserved. Additionaly, he (Ken) reaps all the benefits from it in terms of ticket sales and ownership of the official video production. I also read that he rigged the ticket sales to ensure the audience are mostly creationists. I'll read up on the outcome tomorrow.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66811 Feb 4, 2014
Correction: Bill Nye should NOT have accpeted.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66812 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
I found my judgements! the window was projecting to on the top of the page - necessitating a scroll up to find it. Weird.
Mystery solved. Not that it matters. I rarely use them other than the occasional Funny icon.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66813 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I define religion as mans response to his perception of God. So religion always manmade,
What is at the root of the questioning here is whether the perception is real or not.
I don't agree that's the question.

The perception is clearly real.

If a mental patient sees a pink elephant, his perception is real.

But is the elephant?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66814 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, you are confusing "most folks" with theism, and (arguably) probably a Christian version of theism
But as we spent much time previously, I disagree with the qualifier "most folks". Some folks. Many folks, perhaps. But not necessarily most folks.
There are A LOT of people, and a lot of Jews, who approach it from a more nondual perspective.
Maybe so, but that's my "perception" of what most people mean when they say they believe in god.

This is a WASP country so that may indeed have affected my perception. Understandable I think.

BTW, I believe there about as many Muslims in this country as Jews, so they may want to be heard as well.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66815 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, you are confusing "most folks" with theism, and (arguably) probably a Christian version of theism
But as we spent much time previously, I disagree with the qualifier "most folks". Some folks. Many folks, perhaps. But not necessarily most folks.
There are A LOT of people, and a lot of Jews, who approach it from a more nondual perspective.
...and anyway, my point is that your definition of god is so wide, so all-encompassing, so lucy-goosey - that by your definition I should say I believe in god too.

But I wouldn't. It would confuse people into thinking I believe something that I don't and that would (in my opinion) be entirely justified.

Hence my previous confusion. But we're cool now. As you were.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66816 Feb 4, 2014
I spaced. Should have been:

loosey-goosey
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66817 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
".....The metaphors change over time, as God's people come to understand God in new ways....
SHOCKING, SHOCKING, SHOCKING
(not)
It is interesting that the God of ALL flesh is understood in "new ways" by members of your religion/Judaism and by NEW WAYS I take it that you mean that they have a BETTER understanding of Him now than in ancient times.

Why this is fascinating is that unlike the prophets who SPOKE to God and the ancient Israelites who He spoke with, these MORE enlightened ones DO NOT have DIRECT experiences with Him. In fact they do NOT have any experience with Him. So, on what is this better understanding based upon? Is it based on the cycles of the rabbis?

Fascinating.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66818 Feb 4, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe so, but that's my "perception" of what most people mean when they say they believe in god.
This is a WASP country so that may indeed have affected my perception. Understandable I think.
BTW, I believe there about as many Muslims in this country as Jews, so they may want to be heard as well.
There is a strain of nonduality within Islam as well. Sufism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66819 Feb 4, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't agree that's the question.
The perception is clearly real.
If a mental patient sees a pink elephant, his perception is real.
But is the elephant?
Another way of stating my same question.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66820 Feb 4, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Right. We can certainly think we are perceiving something, even if it doesn't exist. Correct?
And we can still build a religion around that false perception, again, driven strictly by personal psychology and/or group sociology. No?
So it sounds like you are saying that religion really just becomes a tool to help us deal with our perception of God, But, if he's not real, do you think that devalues religion, or do you think it can still flourish with the knowledge that God didn't exist?
(real or not). So religion is manmade, and potentially, so is God.
But I already opined that ALL religion is manmade. Its a human enterprise. So I have no argument at anything you are saying, other than to note that what is really at stake here is whether the perceptions are real (i.e. really God or manmade). An obviously we are not going to agree on an answer to that.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66821 Feb 4, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
...and anyway, my point is that your definition of god is so wide, so all-encompassing, so lucy-goosey - that by your definition I should say I believe in god too.
But I wouldn't. It would confuse people into thinking I believe something that I don't and that would (in my opinion) be entirely justified.
Hence my previous confusion. But we're cool now. As you were.
I cant tell you what you believe in.

But as usual, I will note that my perspective is from a road well trodden as well. And to add that Godtalk (and "Godlogic") doesnt really lead you to knowing god, from this perspective. Its all about experience. Thats how you "know" God from this perspective. Not from logic.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66822 Feb 4, 2014
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
It is interesting that the God of ALL flesh is understood in "new ways" by members of your religion/Judaism and by NEW WAYS I take it that you mean that they have a BETTER understanding of Him now than in ancient times.
Why this is fascinating is that unlike the prophets who SPOKE to God and the ancient Israelites who He spoke with, these MORE enlightened ones DO NOT have DIRECT experiences with Him. In fact they do NOT have any experience with Him. So, on what is this better understanding based upon? Is it based on the cycles of the rabbis?
Fascinating.
What make you think people cant have direct experience with God. This very moment?

Why do you make your God so inaccessible? Thats elitist. What a bummer of a religion.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66823 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles----I guess this is the point where you need a REMINDER as to why we are conversing
You stated that reward and punishment was a DOMINANT theology of Judaism (not of the Bible, but of Jews like me) and used Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur as examples.

HughBe---- I am now saying to YOU and ALL who think like YOU that it takes a CRIMINAL to make such FALSE and LYING comments.

Read my ACTUAL words below and their context. Note, I NEVER said Jews like YOU and I NEVER spoke of rewards and punishment as a DOMINANT theology of Judaism.

YOU said-- And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment.

I/HughBe responded and said-- Are you really a Jew and MORE importantly a member of Judaism?(Explain those words)

Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.

Now having reposted my comments above, YOU cite post # and quote my words that support your EVIL, Judahite.

Support:
1. I "stated that reward and punishment was a DOMINANT theology of Judaism "
2. I said " (not of the Bible, but of Jews like me)" and used Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur as examples.

I shall actually expose you more as a lowlife life by quoting some more of my words.

HughBe----"Research the BLESSINGS/rewards and the PUNISHMENTS that are DETAILED in the Torah." post 66759 page 3014.

Let me explain the words above, they speak of rewards and punishment in the BIBLE and so when I said Torah I meant BIBLE.

Frijoles----So basically you just AGREED with my train of posts, and then (earlier) started to attack me for following the Talmud (red herring and straw argument)

HughBe--- Explain the word attack and cite my attacking words along with post #.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66824 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
One of many contradictory passages in the Bible about the nature of God
But more importantly none of them directly linked to the Jewish High Holidays - whose theological underpinnings are widely known (and previously cited) as coming from post biblical texts.
If you want to give up on the High Holidays for a while and refocus on your argument on how Jews understand God, and more significantly, the commandments, I direct you to a book by Gillman called The Way into Encountering God in Judaism
http://www.amazon.com/Way-Into-Encountering-G... .
In that book, he methodically shows ALL the ways God is depicted in the Bible, with ALL the CONTRADICTIONS (i.e. he doesnt just cherry pick concepts like reward and punishment, rather he documents them, and then shows how God later reverses himself.)
If you prefer to FREEZE and follow just a few lines in the Bible - who am I to stop you? But dont conflate that with my religion, mon.
And definitely dont post google-able misstatements about the meanings behind my religion's holidays - thats lame at best, and devious at worst.
Based on your previous post you have taken refuge in your pit toilet and so I shall not waste my valuable time to read MORE excrement that is squirting out of your brain.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66825 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But I already opined that ALL religion is manmade. Its a human enterprise. So I have no argument at anything you are saying, other than to note that what is really at stake here is whether the perceptions are real (i.e. really God or manmade). An obviously we are not going to agree on an answer to that.
Yes, I understand we agree that religion is man made. But my question was,- if God is not real, do you think that devalues religion, or do you think it can still flourish with the knowledge that God didn't exist?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66826 Feb 4, 2014
Frijoles----What make you think people cant have direct experience with God. This very moment?

HughBe--- I NEVER said any such thing. One thing that I know is that the prophets and the ancient people of Israel had experiences which NONE of your rabbis has EVER had. Moreover the TRASH that spews out of the orifices of your rabbis tells me that they have NO contact with God and by extension, the FAILURE of Judahites to know this TRUTH tells me that members of Judaism are not in contact with God.

Frijoles----Why do you make your God so inaccessible?

HughBe--- Son, YOU and your LYING ways and ALL and I repeat ALL who live like YOU have made Him inaccessible. Lesson, YOU cannot PRACTICE to LIE as you do and have access to Him .

Frijoles---- What a bummer of a religion.

HughBe--- What an utterly CORRUPT religion, is Judaism.

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