Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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#66635
Jan 31, 2014
 

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For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"

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#66636
Jan 31, 2014
 
Humanist/Philosopher Paul Kurtz on the Meaning of Life...

http://youtu.be/dnYJLWdFHaY

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66637
Jan 31, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
\
Let me understand.
Are you saying you want proof that people think? That we have internal conversations with ourselves? That some might call the inner voice that tells us to do the right thing a conscience.
And because I can't offer you actual proof, your god exists?
Keep moving those goalposts!
:)
You keep moving this back into an argument. I dont get it why you are having the need to do this.

All I was doing was reflecting back you the limits of language and logic to be fair.

Then providing other ways to look at it. You dont have BELIEVE in the other ways. But I am describing them, as per your request. None of the other ways preclude your way.

No goal posts. No game. No winning.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66638
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"
I never posited there were fairies, NOR a god in the way you are fighting against

And if there was, and someone believes that they saw it, who are we to doubt it?

Like my comment to FOR, I dont get why you keep fighting a straw battle.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66639
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Neil deGrasse Tyson's response to the question "What is the most astounding fact you can share with us about the Universe?"
http://youtu.be/9D05ej8u-gU
Can you listen to his words and tell me that Atheists/Agnostics think less deeply, less holistically, less focused than a religious/spiritual person?
To me its not about the thinking. I THOUGHT I made that clear, when I said we create God because we need a "a" to relate to.

Its about the experiencing.

If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll (nod to FR) too.

There are two types of people out there - simplistically. Those that are aware, and those that are not. How you want to label them is your business.

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#66640
Jan 31, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you agree that your "spirituality" is taking place in the organ we call a brain?
Do you agree that your spirituality, mysticism etc are electrically charged chemical reactions in your brain and nothing more?
Its impossible to sense with anything other than the biology one has.

I also believe in evolution and science. So what?

You keep looking for contradictions.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66641
Jan 31, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You still haven't used god as a verb.
What you're saying, if I understand - is that you're thinking on/about everything around you, your life, the earth - all of this for which we have no explanation. And you strive to understand it and to appreciate it. To "examine" your life and your place in the world, All good stuff! And you you call in worship or praying.
I think a lot about the same things - I just don't call it religion or praying.
Kewpie doll to you!

Now, when you eat breakfast, do you read the paper, or do you focus on the meal?

IF for some inexplicable reason you wanted to learn how to focus MORE on the meal, and someone gave you a practice or a technique to enable you, why wouldnt you embrace this?

BTW you keep hanging yourself up with a notion that I use religion to explain how the world works. I never said that. And I dont. You are imposing a theology on me.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>A rose by any other name.
Save your money though and just do it on your own. Plus it may free up your Saturdays!
:))
Also, as CoR points out, I believe we think just as deeply and just as focused as you do. We do it our own vs within an organized ritualistic tradition of scripture etc.
Doesn't make it any less effective for us.
And it frees up our weekends, plus it's free!
You can do it - break free! As you know many atheists are former Jews.
I was a "practicing" Bhuddist for a number of years, and interestingly enough, it was not contradictory to my the practice of Judaism OR an atheistic belief.

I dont get why you see the world (choice of religion vs atheism ) in black and white terms. You could learn from the Bhuddist approach.

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#66642
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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Well....I have "the will to live." Now you'll tell me that I believe in god?
I also believe in "justice, truth and compassion for the earth." So?
This may be a part of any belief system or religion but it is not the basis for worshiping an unknown and unknowable deity. Or for eating milk and meat out of separate dishes.
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.

Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.

I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Any when you say "Everything Is God" - then how can anyone really argue with that?
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.

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#66643
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
To me its not about the thinking. I THOUGHT I made that clear, when I said we create God because we need a "a" to relate to.
Its about the experiencing.
If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll (nod to FR) too.
There are two types of people out there - simplistically. Those that are aware, and those that are not. How you want to label them is your business.
But you made some very specific statements that attributed the following qualities to the religious/spiritual (implying they are missing from the agnostic/atheist)...

MORE holistic....
DEEPER sense of experience...
MORE focused...

Now you're backtracking a bit and saying If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll

So do you now agree that a non-religious/non-spiritual person can experience life just as holistically, deeply and well focused as a religious/spiritual person?

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#66644
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never posited there were fairies, NOR a god in the way you are fighting against
And if there was, and someone believes that they saw it, who are we to doubt it?
Like my comment to FOR, I dont get why you keep fighting a straw battle.
The point of the quote was not in denying what other people think they see, but rather, it was to highlight that the garden can be enjoyed with or without the presence of fairies. The fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

And I'm sure this goes without saying, but I do believe people THINK they see fairies. It's the actual fairies I don't believe in, nor do I need to in order to have a finer appreciation (experience) of the garden.

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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
But you made some very specific statements that attributed the following qualities to the religious/spiritual (implying they are missing from the agnostic/atheist)...
MORE holistic....
DEEPER sense of experience...
MORE focused...
Now you're backtracking a bit and saying If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll
So do you now agree that a non-religious/non-spiritual person can experience life just as holistically, deeply and well focused as a religious/spiritual person?
I believe I addressed that by saying there were 2 types of people (simplistically), aware and not aware. What you want to label them is your business.

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#66646
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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
The point of the quote was not in denying what other people think they see, but rather, it was to highlight that the garden can be enjoyed with or without the presence of fairies. The fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

And I'm sure this goes without saying, but I do believe people THINK they see fairies. It's the actual fairies I don't believe in, nor do I need to in order to have a finer appreciation (experience) of the garden.
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?

ANd whoa re you to tell people what is and what is not necessary to their enjoyment. I think to be more intellectually honest, what you SHOULD say is that to you, the fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

Furthermore, in theory, if I provided a technique to increase your enjoyment AND increasing your enjoyment was a strong value of yours, why wouldnt you try the technique?

The point being is some people want more, and some people are happy with what they have. You dont understand the drive to want more (i,e, increase your enjoyment), thats your deal. But other people are different.

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Any when you say "Everything Is God" - then how can anyone really argue with that?
http://books.google.com/books/about/Everythin...

"....We usually think of God as an entity entirely separate from us. Hasidic Jews and Kabbalists (along with practitioners of some other spiritual traditions) have long asserted that God is not separate from us at all.

In this nondual view, everyone and everything manifests God. Once considered a radical, mystical idea, the concept and spiritual practice of nondual Judaism is increasingly influencing mainstream Judaism—in sermons, seminars, prayer books, and meditation practices..."
former res

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#66648
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Neil deGrasse Tyson's response to the question "What is the most astounding fact you can share with us about the Universe?"
http://youtu.be/9D05ej8u-gU
Can you listen to his words and tell me that Atheists/Agnostics think less deeply, less holistically, less focused than a religious/spiritual person?
Good stuff!

A hell of a lot more interesting (and awe-inspiring) than going somewhere every weekend to sit with others and contemplate one's navel.

But wait! I used the word "awe" so Frijoles will say I'm religious!

:))
former res

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#66649
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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You keep moving this back into an argument. I dont get it why you are having the need to do this.
All I was doing was reflecting back you the limits of language and logic to be fair.
Then providing other ways to look at it. You dont have BELIEVE in the other ways. But I am describing them, as per your request. None of the other ways preclude your way.
No goal posts. No game. No winning.
I'm engaged in a search for rational thought.

We are having a give and take, whatever you want to call it.

You post, I respond as best I can.

I accept that you have no response.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

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#66650
Jan 31, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
Humanist/Philosopher Paul Kurtz on the Meaning of Life...
http://youtu.be/dnYJLWdFHaY
rabbee: well that is the problem with his paganism, everyone making up their own definition of life. like stalin, hitler, jack the ripper, nero, obama, and ted bundy also did. in the idea of making yourself, more important than G-D. and having to many, point of origins for your alleged truth. shall only result in, diverse hostilities on earth. neither jews, christians, buddhist, atheist, pagans or other muslims, all worship the same g-d/s. and you should be really, concerned about those other subtle talking g-ds divisions in the world. as long as you do not have one true focal point, you shall all be untruly divided truly.
former res

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#66651
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its impossible to sense with anything other than the biology one has.
I also believe in evolution and science. So what?
You keep looking for contradictions.
Believing in evolution and science, I would not
consider much of a leap of faith.

Believing in an all-powerful creator might be something else.

Do you see a difference?

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#66652
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe I addressed that by saying there were 2 types of people (simplistically), aware and not aware. What you want to label them is your business.
Aware and not aware of what?

That way your breakfast analogy can be interpretted is...

Atheists are multitaksing and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast

Religous people are more focused on their breakfast and, thus, getting more out of the experience.

Help me understand how that is not insulting to atheists. I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.

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#66653
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its impossible to sense with anything other than the biology one has.
I also believe in evolution and science. So what?
You keep looking for contradictions.
rabbee: it would be nicer, to G-D. if you believed, in G-D. instead of all the fecal matter, from the subtle talking critters of the field. and deluding you with their, antiG-D intentions as other g-ds. but these self manufactured other g-ds, only add you your being confused. in their attempts to alter your focal point, and concentrating the false light of many in a very destructive way. and the ;last thing we need, is diverse religions trying to burn each other with their own magnifying glass religiously.

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#66654
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?
It's possible that I was knocking their perceptions, though I don't recall doing so. Could you point me to an example?
Frijoles wrote:
ANd whoa re you to tell people what is and what is not necessary to their enjoyment.
Again, I don't recall specifically telling anyone what is and what is not necessary to THEIR enjoyment. Questioning a practice is not the same as telling someone to do or not do something.
Frijoles wrote:
I think to be more intellectually honest, what you SHOULD say is that to you, the fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.
I believe I said exactly that.
Frijoles wrote:
Furthermore, in theory, if I provided a technique to increase your enjoyment AND increasing your enjoyment was a strong value of yours, why wouldnt you try the technique?
Who said I wouldn't? That's not the issue. The issue is that you assume (through your analogy) that those who don't employ your technique are at a disadvantage when it comes to enjoyment of an experience.
Frijoles wrote:
The point being is some people want more, and some people are happy with what they have. You dont understand the drive to want more (i,e, increase your enjoyment), thats your deal. But other people are different.
So because I don't subscribe to your "technique", I don't have the drive to want more? I'm really not trying to put words into your mouth, but your wording is difficult to swallow.

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