Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72030 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66603 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it reinforces my point. Note ..."study of ideas, set of ideas". Thats essentially a mental activity.
Religion - how man answers his perception of Gods calling. Or Mans search for God. etc etc
Note- that is behavior.
Have nothing against Unitarians. Just a comment. They prioritize discussions, analysis.
I think you agreed that god is man-made.

Where did man make him? Yes, in his brain.
(Not in the organ that pumps our blood around.)

This makes it a mental activity by definition.

Behavior is normally something one does. I guess by that,
thinking is a behavior, or creating.

Sorry to take all the fun out of it.

I was only kidding about Unitarians.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66604 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
There were different degrees of Nazism. Some were believers, some were just followers. But dont discount the believers.
I would never discount believers.

But all know that believing something doesn't make it true.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66605 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
To quote A.J. Heschel..."For religion is more than a creed or ideology and can not be understood detached from living."
also.."The Bible does not intend to teach us principles of creation or redemption. It came to teach us that God is alive, that he is creator and redeemer..the concern of philosophy is to analyze or to explain, the concern of religion is to purify and to sanctify...Speculation (philosophy) starts with concepts, Biblical religion starts with events. The life of religion is given not in the mental preservation of ideas but in events and insights..."
I think what is confusing you is not religion, but theology. Theology is a type of philosophy. Interestingly, one has to DERIVE theology from the bible (OT), because the emphasis and style of the text is via narrative.
Theology is the study of religion.

Fuzzy language can lead to fuzzy thinking.

And of course vice versa.

No need to overthink it, lest one become confused.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66606 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it was COR, a long time ago, who coined the label "fundie", and I adopted it.
I have no problem with the term.

See how many times I've used it here.

I have a problem with it being used as a straw man or red herring when some of us are speaking of religion in general. Not this one group you keep wanting to bring it back to.

But I believe you understand that.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66607 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
Frijoles
Would you agree that religion is man-made? Yours?
What is the difference between religion and philosophy?
rabbee: joelosophy, because his name ain't phil.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66608 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats the part most seculars and those with an individualist Christian background dont get. Its the exact OPPOSITE to how they understand religion.
<quoted text>
Read books by Jack Kornfield and John Kabat Zinn- they are tailored to pain
More importantly, find a teacher. Sometimes when you start this work, its gets worse and a guide is useful.
I might do that.
But after reading wiki and following some blue words i decided to let it come my way without too much intellectualizing. Though books can change ones life..

I've been provided a nurse and will get a trainer though all are new at it. Which is an excellent position if think. None are taking themselves too serious.

A leap of faith so to say.
I seriously doubt any benefit but for some more acceptance of the chronic pain position.
Usually i have to explain and people do not get it even though they decide about meds a.s.o..
That is a lousy position to be in.
Accepting would mean to not experience it as such, which should make life less of a struggle in that respect. Stress-resistance so to say.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66609 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you agreed that god is man-made.
Where did man make him? Yes, in his brain.
(Not in the organ that pumps our blood around.)
This makes it a mental activity by definition.
Behavior is normally something one does. I guess by that,
thinking is a behavior, or creating.
Sorry to take all the fun out of it.
I was only kidding about Unitarians.
I never agreed that god was man-made. I said religion is mans response to his perception of God.

I am not a theist, as you know, I am more of a panentheist. But I also understand that the human condition is such that many people feel the need to pray, and to pray you need an "other". So you create a model other. But I see that as an imperfect (but necessary), allusion to something else.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66610 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Behavior is normally something one does. I guess by that,
thinking is a behavior, or creating.
Sorry to take all the fun out of it.
I was only kidding about Unitarians.
So philosophy becomes a branch of religion?

I would almost agree with that.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66611 Jan 30, 2014
The Prophet presents a ten-point program of "Behavior Modification Therapy" .

There are countless ways to look at judaism and the book.
http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/haftarot/deva...

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66612 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Much of it can be explained by the literal approach, combined with a trust of oral education.
And combined with the fact that their text has been translated for them. For example, the Ten Commandments vs ten devarim. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in meanings.
ITs funny how many people dont realize that the text was originally formulated for chanting, and that the cadence and rhythm dictated the syntax. You miss ALL of that when you read it in English in "Bible Study", where it becomes a dry document.
quote:
[...]
It is chanted to the same haunting melody as is “Megilat Eichah,” the Scroll of Lamentations written by the Prophet Yirmiyahu, who was an “eye-witness” to the Destruction. Yeshayahu was an “eye-witness” as well, but only in the mind’s eye of his prophetic vision. In the external reality, it hadn’t yet happened. It still could have been averted, if only the People would have repented.[...]

(Here there is an important transition in meaning, marked by a transition in the way the Haftarah is chanted, from the melody of Eichah to the normal Haftarah melody)
---

And the commen sense usually lacking in christian exposees:

quote:
A question arises:

This is supposed to be a "Haftarah of Punishment." Why is it that we stop on a positive note? After all, the very next verse in Yeshayahu, not included in the Haftarah, returns to the theme of punishment!

The answer may be that even in a "Haftarah of Punishment," CHAZAL did not want to emphasize the punishment aspect or rather, they didn't want "punishment" to have the last word. For if so, what would be the purpose of the whole exercise?

If the Symphony of the History of Israel would not end on a note of triumph, what would have been the purpose of the composition? Rather, the purpose of "Puranut," of Divine Punishment itself, is "Nechama," Consolation. Just as the punishment administered by a parent to a child is meant for the improvement of the child, the punishment of our People should be seen as an attempt by "Avinu She-BaShamayim," Our Father in Heaven, to improve us and move us along the Path to the Coming of the Mashiach.

Rabbi Pinchas Frankel
end quote.

(Though i Always wonder about the aramaic father in heaven part. Since i've come to read that as Baal. Just me and ANE history)

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66613 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never agreed that god was man-made. I said religion is mans response to his perception of God.
I am not a theist, as you know, I am more of a panentheist. But I also understand that the human condition is such that many people feel the need to pray, and to pray you need an "other". So you create a model other. But I see that as an imperfect (but necessary), allusion to something else.
Do you agree that no one knows anything about our creator, or even that we have one?

It is possible we were formed by a series of chemical reactions and that there is no single actual creator.

The god concept (perception of god) was created by whom? Man? Who else?

Man created something (god) and then created his response to it - all religion I submit.

So I ask again, did man create god? If not, who did?

“If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated."

&#8213; Voltaire
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66614 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
So philosophy becomes a branch of religion?
I would almost agree with that.
re·li·gion noun \ri-&#712;li-j&#601;n\

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

The definition seems to center around god. So it's a bit restrictive to cover philosophy in general.

But it's an interesting question. Also, do you consider yourself religious? If someone came up and asked you that, my guess is you'd say yes.

But you say you don't necessarily believe in god, so I don't know.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66615 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never agreed that god was man-made. I said religion is mans response to his perception of God.
I am not a theist, as you know, I am more of a panentheist. But I also understand that the human condition is such that many people feel the need to pray, and to pray you need an "other". So you create a model other. But I see that as an imperfect (but necessary), allusion to something else.
thanks (the) lovely morning...would solve that one.

More a question of grammar.

That the lovely morning is part and package of the concept i take for granted.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66616 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
re·li·gion noun \ri-&#712;li-j&#601;n\
: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
The definition seems to center around god. So it's a bit restrictive to cover philosophy in general.
But it's an interesting question. Also, do you consider yourself religious? If someone came up and asked you that, my guess is you'd say yes.
But you say you don't necessarily believe in god, so I don't know.
If any logic was involved none would come up with the majority prosecution complex:
http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66617 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you agree that no one knows anything about our creator, or even that we have one?
It is possible we were formed by a series of chemical reactions and that there is no single actual creator.
The god concept (perception of god) was created by whom? Man? Who else?
Man created something (god) and then created his response to it - all religion I submit.
So I ask again, did man create god? If not, who did?
“If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated."
&#8213; Voltaire
Sorry to parse your question, but it is very important...

"...about our creator..."? Note you are objectifying the issue. As all theists do. But what if what you think "as" God is really a process, like evolution? You cant objectify a verb so easily. Verbs are not static.

What we know is what we have perceived as a result of our relationship to God, not attributes of God. I.E. we experience God, the same way I experience you without any real clue about what you are. I also believe that there are techniques that potentially allow you, or potentially teach you, to experience God more clearly.

One of the ten sayings (commandments!) addressed this very issue - No idols - i.e. no physical models.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66618 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
re·li·gion noun \ri-&#712;li-j&#601;n\
: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
The definition seems to center around god. So it's a bit restrictive to cover philosophy in general.
But it's an interesting question. Also, do you consider yourself religious? If someone came up and asked you that, my guess is you'd say yes.
But you say you don't necessarily believe in god, so I don't know.
In one of my rare moments, I diasgree with the dictionary, which is steeped in Western notions of what religion is (basically Christianity)

In Hebrew there is NO word for religion. The concept didnt exist biblically. The closest words are "The law" (dat), "The path" (derech), and "The way" (halacha).

One of the most famous quotes from the Hebrew bible is when the Children of Israel are met by Moses who just received the Ten Sayings (commandments!). Their response: "We will do and we will hear/understand".......In other words - behavior first!

Maat pegged it (and Rick mentioned it before as well). In Judaism form and content is inseparable.

That all said, I was mainly joking when I said philosophy might be part of religion. I was turning around your original pronouncement.

But it is instructive to understand the differences between the two religious systems (Christianity and Judaism) and appreciate how the dominate one (Christianity) has influenced your conceptions of what a religion is. When I lived in another state, and had native-American friends, they had the similar observations as to above - i.e. what I learned was that Judaism takes a tribal approach.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66619 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry to parse your question, but it is very important...
"...about our creator..."? Note you are objectifying the issue. As all theists do. But what if what you think "as" God is really a process, like evolution? You cant objectify a verb so easily. Verbs are not static.
What we know is what we have perceived as a result of our relationship to God, not attributes of God. I.E. we experience God, the same way I experience you without any real clue about what you are. I also believe that there are techniques that potentially allow you, or potentially teach you, to experience God more clearly.
One of the ten sayings (commandments!) addressed this very issue - No idols - i.e. no physical models.
Explain it to me like I'm a 3-year-old.

Use God in a sentence as a verb. Process/evolution are both nouns.

It sounds as though when push comes to shove/when the rubber finally hits the road, you simply change the rules (as in "the dictionary was written by Christians" - of course religion is about worshiping a deity).

Religious folks pray to an entity, not a process.

And verbs are easy to objectify. "Bobby PLAYS after school." Or "Bobby engages in PLAY."
See? It's easy - first the verb, then the noun.(Former editor here!)

So in the end you resort to the old theist argument against the old atheist argument:

"Since you can't explain how any of this got here (or any of us), then my explanation of god is the correct one." Or something to that effect.

And I hear you saying:

"I am not worshiping/praying to a deity per se. I'm praying to a process. I'm praying to the process of how we all got here - though I know absolutely no more about any of it, our origin, the nature of our creator (if there is one)- that you do, Mr. Atheist."

I think when you say you experience god, you are simply experiencing life.

You don't know me, true. But we communicate.

If you say god speaks to you, that is simply your conscience.

I also prefer the examined life to the unexamined life.

Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living"


“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66622 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>

Religious folks pray to an entity, not a process.
Not totally correct. You are obviously not familiar with nondual approaches. In Judaism, we have Kaballah and Hasidism,and also Reconstructionism.

http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Is-God-Radic...
Everything Is God: The Radical Path of Nondual Judaism

God Is a Verb: Kabbalah and the Practice of Mystical Judaism
http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-Verb-Kabbalah-Pr...

Reconstructionism
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Moder...
In Kaplan's frequently reiterated statement, "God is the Power that makes for salvation" or as he sometimes puts it, "God is the sum of the animating, organizing forces and relationships which are forever making a cosmos out of chaos." For Kaplan, the idea of God must be viewed not metaphysically but functionally, in terms of its effects on human life. "We learn more about God when we say that love is divine than when we say God is love. A veritable transformation takes place....Divinity becomes relevant to authentic experience and therefore takes on a definiteness which is accompanied by an awareness of authentic­ity.” Belief in God stems not from the intellect but from the will to ­live, reflecting the faith that there is enough in the world for man's needs, although not for man's "greeds and lusts." Divinity is that coordinating, integrating factor in nature that makes possible the actualization of jus­tice, truth, and compassion on earth.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66623 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>

And verbs are easy to objectify. "Bobby PLAYS after school." Or "Bobby engages in PLAY."
See? It's easy - first the verb, then the noun.(Former editor here!)
So in the end you resort to the old theist argument against the old atheist argument:
You are almost there - making progress..hang in there...

See - you just objectified the verb. You didnt experience playing - you DESCRIBED it. Thats totally my point. We objectify GOD with godtalk. We captured it. But the "essence" so to speak can also be a fluidity.

How to pray to a verb? As much as you need a "a" to pray to, you create it, to give your brain something to focus towards. But at the same time, you can also experience it as well, which is a different type of encounter.

When I experience you (by reading you) I dont experience your essence (though I can pretend or imagine it) I experience my reaction TO you, and your reaction TO me. And that is the limit of my knowledge OF you.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66624 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think when you say you experience god, you are simply experiencing life.
You don't know me, true. But we communicate.
If you say god speaks to you, that is simply your conscience.
I also prefer the examined life to the unexamined life.
Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living"
But you have no more evidence for the objectification of a conscience than I have to provide for you the objectification of God. How big is your conscience? Is it measureable?

The same for "life".

I never discounted your normative modes of operation. All I am doing is trying to explain other ways. At the end of the day your practices and my practices should arrive at the same place. In Bhuddism this is called "return to the marketplace" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

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