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In Sig We Trust
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You know, I feel so sorry for those people who live in Roland Park. These people feel that the open space that they so need is something that they deserve. Too bad that the open space is owned by someone else and thay have no right to tell them how use it, so long as it is within the law.
Let's face it, people living in the Roland Park area are not hurting for money, so why don't they band together and purchase the property themselves and make it a private park. Then they can pay for the upkeep and roam the open space all they like.
I am so sick of this open space argument. If you want open space, don't move into a city. Seems simple enough.
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westside
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As a city resident, I have always felt that it was a mistake of planning to put the suburban Roland Park/Guilford/Homeland neighborhoods right where it would have made more sense to continue the urban fabric/density of Hampden/Charles Village northward toward Towson. I'm all for anything that makes Roland Park a little more city and a little less 'burb.
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murphy
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In Sig We Trust wrote: Let's face it, people living in the Roland Park area are not hurting for money, so why don't they band together and purchase the property themselves and make it a private park. Then they can pay for the upkeep and roam the open space all they like. Fair enough, but Roland Park residents have tried several times to buy the land at fair market value and been denied the opportunity.
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Theresa
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murphy wrote: <quoted text>
Fair enough, but Roland Park residents have tried several times to buy the land at fair market value and been denied the opportunity. Exactly. The Roland Park Civic League has made at least 3 serious offers to the country club for the land, but the club board never took those offers to the membership. Roland Park residents recognize that this is private land and are not asking for special privelegs, but are asking that their offers at least be brought to the table. Yesterday's story about the Padonia swim club brought a comment from one person about how the church would not be paying taxes. If this sale goes forward, not only will the city lose the taxes that the country club now pays (Keswick operates as a non-profit) but it will depress the surrounding property values and therefore further decrease the taxes. The full ramifications of this deal still need to be examined.
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name not important
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The community should buy the property, simple enough. Proportional ownership would increase each of their own valuations and they'd keep away that nasty (sarcasm intended) nursing home. Can't really see how a retirement home is a bad neighbor, but that is in the eye of the beholder.
Morevover, this is a case of someone trying to tell someone else what to do with their property, which should not be tolerated for a second.
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RP N-A
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the offers made from the community to purchase the property were only approx. a third of what keswick has agreed to pay. i live in the community too and feel that if the privately owned club wants to sell the land, they have the right to do so as the members please. the club has been more than generous to the community to begin with. they have allowed neighbors to let their pets do their business and children sleigh-ride down the hill for decades. if they desired, a fence could have been put up years ago and security could have actively enforced the no trespassing signs clearly posted on trees all over the property.
and im not saying i'd rather have the giant eyesore of an assisted living facility and parking lot dominate the space either. but if its what the club wants to do, the roland park civic league shouldn't have a say in the matter until they can come up with the 12.5 million dollars that keswick has agreed to pay.
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Ricky
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I couldn't agree more. This is a property-rights issue plan and simple. The Club has been kind enough to allow these ungrateful people to use The Club's land and now listen to the howls and screams. It isn't their "park" and they have no right to tell a neighbor what they can and can't do with their land.
Here is a simple solution: persuade Keswick to buy part of the Cross Keys complex, which is now for sale and turn THAT into a multi-care center. The community then buys the land from BCC for at least $12 million, and everyone is happy..........for now.
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Douger
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"However, the proposed expansion of Keswick into Roland Park would eliminate one of the last large pieces of unspoiled ground on the north side of the city."
Pure, unadulterated bull squeeze.
Go rent an airplane and fly over the city. Once you leave the downtown area, there's lots of "unspoiled ground" north of the city, especially in Roland Park.
This is NIMBYism, plain and simple.
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Douger
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"...but the club board never took those offers to the membership."
Much as Congress doesn't take issues to the public...we don't vote in national referendums...a board of directors doesn't usually take business to the membership. That's what the board is for, and if the board determines they don't want the hot potato, they're free to pass it to the membership.
And much like Congress, if the board doesn't act in the best interests of the membership, there are usually provisions to remove the board.
Boards usually are legally beholden to conduct transactions that are most beneficial to the membership. If Keswick is offering three times what the Roland Park neighborhood is, the prudent business decision would be to accept the Keswick offer. To accept far less might feel good, but it's not in the fiduciary interest of the Country Club.
Feel good transactions are for liberals, not businessmen and women.
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Theresa
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Douger wrote: "...
Boards usually are legally beholden to conduct transactions that are most beneficial to the membership. If Keswick is offering three times what the Roland Park neighborhood is, the prudent business decision would be to accept the Keswick offer. To accept far less might feel good, but it's not in the fiduciary interest of the Country Club.
Feel good transactions are for liberals, not businessmen and women. Here's the thing: this kind of development requires a zoning change; without that the land is not going to be worth the kind of money that is being tossed about. It seems to me that the board has not served the membership of the club well. They took on tremendous debt in moving to Five Farms and conducted the negotiations, apparently, under the idea that this would be a "done deal." By report, the letter they sent to the the club members threatens huge assessments against the members of the club if they don't vote for this. But the zoning still isn't guaranteed, and they clearly underestimated the community response. I'm not aware of the details about the previous consideration to sell the land for athletic fields, but it was also opposed by the community, and subsequently voted down by the membership, AND it would not have required a zoning change. To say this is about "whiny, priveleged Roland Parkers" and nimbyism, furthermore, is just laughable. Let's face it, we're talking about members of Baltimore Country Club, some of the most well-heeled people in the state, and we're talking about assisted living by Keswick, which would not be covered by Medicare or Medicaid, nor by most private insurance except for long-term insurance. This is hardly a facility that would be for the underserved, much less for the "average" elderly resident.(In fact, it would be residents of neighborhoods such as Roland Park who would be most likely to use it.) Again, the community has offered to buy the property at a price that would reflect fair value without the zoning change. And given the opposition, that zoning change is far from guaranteed.
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Douger
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"Here's the thing: this kind of development requires a zoning change; without that the land is not going to be worth the kind of money that is being tossed about."
Then all of the gnashing of teeth is premature, or setting the stage for the zoning fight.
Y'all make it sound like the bulldozers are idling, waiting for the OK.
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Douger
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"This is hardly a facility that would be for the underserved..."
No one said it would be.
But if Keswick's target clientele are upscale folks, then for them to build in say, West Baltimore like some moron suggested isn't going to serve the customer, will it?
And better yet for Keswick, you're right about the possible residents coming from neighborhoods like Roland Park.
I don't live there, and really don't care other than that property rights, if there are any left in America, have taken a beating lately. I'm for property owners doing pretty much what they please with their stuff, and if others don't like it, to give said owner whatever his asking price is so the neighborhood can control the property.
Sorry. Fair market value and what an owner perceives is fair are likely two separate issues.
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Theresa
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Douger wrote: "I don't live there, and really don't care other than that property rights, if there are any left in America, have taken a beating lately. I'm for property owners doing pretty much what they please with their stuff, and if others don't like it, to give said owner whatever his asking price is so the neighborhood can control the property.
Sorry. Fair market value and what an owner perceives is fair are likely two separate issues. This is why you have zoning laws, which exist all across the state of Maryland. If you don't like zoning laws, go live in Houston. Seriously, people make choices about the property they buy based on lots of factors, and one of those factors for some people are zoning laws. That's why when people who own property are requesting variances or changes in zoning laws, they are obligated to post notice and go before a hearing. Private property rights are all fine and dandy, and no one is disputing that; as stated many, many times, the Roland Park Civic League has made several attempts to buy this property. But if the club sells the land and if the zoning laws are changed, it will not only affect the owners of that particular land in question, but also all the surrounding properties. It will almost assuredly decrease the values of nearby properties, on top of what is already happening to the market. So, you see, those property owners also have a vested interest. And anyone who lives in the city should have an interest in this, too. At least 50% of the land in Baltimore City is owned by non-taxable entities, whether they be governments, educational institutions, healthcare facilities (as Keswick would be), or other non-profits. Any time a major non-profit development comes up, this becomes a legitimate issue as well. Property rights are just not that simply cut and dried.
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Falling employer rolls
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Hey Ann Lordo, Larry Williams, Diane Camper, Todd Windsor, Peter Jensen, Mike Cross-Barnet, Franz Schneiderman and Makeda Crane,
How about a collective were sorry for endorsing these criminals? Was it worth the free cable from Bromwell and his son, the gift cards from Dixon, the free groceries from Currie and the free AA county vehilce inspections. What did O'Malley promise you for the sudden Pro-slots stance?
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John Davis Held
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The last thing Baltimore needs is to do the kind of damage that we're talking about here to an important community so that a corporation can make a quick buck! There is significant history here, support for the elderly, and fifteen years of overtures to purchase the land which seem to not been taken into account. Shame on you Baltimore Sun for not doing your homework!
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bill
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Iwould like to know what is the amount that the RP Residents have offeredto the BCC. If it is not atleast $10M they have absolutely no leg to stand on. People in that neighbohood who obviously understand how money works should understand this.
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Theresa
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bill wrote: Iwould like to know what is the amount that the RP Residents have offeredto the BCC. If it is not atleast $10M they have absolutely no leg to stand on. People in that neighbohood who obviously understand how money works should understand this. Today's edition of the Baltimore Messenger has a good bit more information. According to that article, the city currently values the land at $1.9 million. The neighborhood has made 3 offers between $4 and $4.5 million dollars. A wise real estate agent said to me once, "every house will sell, if you have the right price." You may think your house is worth $500K, but if no one wants to pay that, is it worth that much? Lots of people are finding this out these days. And the article points out, yet again, that the price Keswick has offered is dependent on the zoning change. Without that change, they won't be able to develop the land as they want to, and therefore the land wouldn't really be worth anything to them, would it. I highly recommend the Messenger for further reading on this issue.
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name not important
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Theresa wrote: <quoted text>
This is why you have zoning laws, which exist all across the state of Maryland. If you don't like zoning laws, go live in Houston.
Seriously, people make choices about the property they buy based on lots of factors, and one of those factors for some people are zoning laws. That's why when people who own property are requesting variances or changes in zoning laws, they are obligated to post notice and go before a hearing.
Private property rights are all fine and dandy, and no one is disputing that; as stated many, many times, the Roland Park Civic League has made several attempts to buy this property.
But if the club sells the land and if the zoning laws are changed, it will not only affect the owners of that particular land in question, but also all the surrounding properties. It will almost assuredly decrease the values of nearby properties, on top of what is already happening to the market. So, you see, those property owners also have a vested interest.
And anyone who lives in the city should have an interest in this, too. At least 50% of the land in Baltimore City is owned by non-taxable entities, whether they be governments, educational institutions, healthcare facilities (as Keswick would be), or other non-profits. Any time a major non-profit development comes up, this becomes a legitimate issue as well.
Property rights are just not that simply cut and dried. Your crack about Houston is such hypocrisy. In Maryland we already have the most absurd zoning. Some guy(s) in Towson will decide if you in Essex or you in Catonsville can do something with your property, and his decision may have a lot more to do with who his bank rollers are than who his constituents are. The four year zoning thing is a sinister process, full of tricks and deceipt that only hiring high priced lawyers has any chance of pulling you even with the big developers. And that isn't if something didn't already magically happen (not all decisions get made in the 4 year process, some can be made "administratively", some can get done by "exception", etc., and some just get done without anyone knowing about it<draw your own conclusions on that>). I've lived in NJ and Mass and find their system of "towns" to have a far more meaninful process than Marylands. Everyone loves to make fun of NJ and Mass (for various and different reasons) but I'll tell you this. A good town 30 years ago is a good town still because they have all their zoning issues done on a local basis with local people. Beyond the Houston insult (what do you know about Houston anyway? West Va might be a better example of even poorer zoning) your thinking that the country club owes you anything is a joke. Everyone should have the right to do what ever they can to enhance the value of their property. Fight them at zoning (good luck, sorry) if you have a legitimate reason, but this whine that they were offered a fair price that is 1/3 of what they can get is just an insult. Sell me your property for 1/3 of what the market value is if you want to see the light.
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Regardless
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Regardless of whether or not its a wise purchase for Keswick, its a matter of $12million dollar vs.$4.5million dollars in BCC's pocket. I mean a child would tell you what to do in that situation.
Do you think your wise Real Estate Agent would encourage you to take an offer of significantly less value for your home when you go to sell it? As an agent myself, I certainly know that if I used those business practices I wouldn't have much work.
And for what its worth, the proposed land to be built encompasses the land that used to house the tennis courts (land the public never used) and the small area north of the old golf green. As an observant member of the community, I notice that the majority of the trespassers, excuse me, I mean neighbors, tend to use the property south of the main line of trees on the big hill. That land is going to be untouched and left open (officially for the first time) to the public.
So if anything, the members of the community in an uproar should be thankful that Keswick is providing this land for their free use.
I highly recommend my fellow neighbors in the Roland Park Civic League take their concerns elsewhere because the more they oppose this sale of privately owned land, the more foolish they make the entire neighborhood look.
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Regardless
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Correction-
What I meant to say was that the land NORTH of the old golf hole (towards Edgevale Rd.) is the land meant to be left untouched. The land SOUTH of the golf hole towards Hilside Rd. including the old tennis courts are what is going to be developed.
My point is still the same.
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