Head Of 'Polyamory' Group Discusses Multiple Partners

[fed up with the mess]

RISING STAR wrote:

<quoted text>
Joyce - you are nasty. You have no sense of loyalty, commitment, self-control or dedication. You seem bent on taking your body through its paces, your mind to the races and your spirit bound in laces.
Yeah, I know it rhymes...sorry. But the living such an anarchistic life doesn't cut it for the rest of the world who are trying to keep it together - so the lazy ones such as yourself can "enjoy" themselves.

Thank you rising star. She is nasty and freaky too!

[RISING STAR]

Mechgogo wrote:

<quoted text>
Having the word "Psychiatrist" scrawled in crayon on the back of Chuck E Cheese kids menu doesn't make you a shrink so I'll pass.
<quoted text>
Actually, I returned a long time ago in no small part due to my lifestyle teaching me more about consideration for the feelings and needs of others than I ever learned as a monogamist. Frankly, in my experience, the more militantly conformist a person is, the worse they tend to treat their fellow man. Exhibit A yourself and F'ed up with the mess.
<quoted text>
Actually I've never used meds to treat my condition. They're a crutch. Just hard work and determination. Oh and the love and endless patience and compassion of my two wives.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got grownup stuff to do. You might want to get off the computer and back to class before you get busted for skipping out and wind up in detention :)

Listen son...denial is no way to begin the healing process. You are right, it's none of my business - but since we can all post here due to this being a free country, well.......

But seriously, get some real help before you hurt someone.

[Mechgogo]

Star, you're entitled to your opinion and of course I'll give it the same amount of weight and due consideration I would anyone else who just happened to be a stranger halfway across the country who has never met me, is openly hostile to the lifestyle I credit with saving me and has yet to show anything remotely resembling tact or courtesy to anyone who doesn't share their particular view. You want to actually engage in an exchange of ideas, great we can talk. You want to continue to post boring troll-bait? Enjoy the silence because I've got plenty of things and people I could be doing with the time I'm done wasting on you.
Mech out

[fed up with the mess]

This mess was on oprah yesterday. The man had 3 wives of which 2 were sisters. How nasty! People have no morals in this world and they are getting worse.

[PracticalPolyamo ryDotCom]

Rising Star in Broomfield said "There is no mention of commitment, bonding and/or cleaving to your spouse here. "

My primary partner and I are as committed to each other and our relationship as any monogamously married couple. We are pledged to invest the time and attention to our relationship necessary to keep it healthy. Polyamorists making it work know that this is key for all involved. We also respect pre-existing relationships and pledge to support them and not to do anything that would undermine them, i.e. indulge in competitive or divisive behavior. With these commitments in place, it works and works very well.

I've done it the traditional way, which I eventually determined wasn't right for me. I've never been happier or more secure in my relationships, and my partners say the same. A different kind of fidelity, to be sure, but still fidelitious.

"A man or woman could instaneously use the excuse that he or she was tired of the relationship(s) and take off without any thought of penalty or remorse...why? Because the next man/woman (Jody or Jackie) is there to pick up the slack. "

It doesn't work that way. If you were to lose a child, would having others make the pain of the loss any less significant? Yes, it's great to have support from other partners, but it in no way spares us the pain and grief of loss. Humans aren't wired that way.

"Now in a tribal community, that would be enviable - but in our society i.e. urban community - that practice is vilified by those who don't live that lifestyle as being irresponsible, savage and continuing a cycle of poverty - why? Because no one is there to pick up the slack after the incessant bed-hopping, multiple relationships and free-will living. "

Let me set the record straight. Polyamory is NOT about the sex any more than monogamous relationships are about sex. I am sometimes amazed at how people immediately assume this is the case - makes me wonder who really has their mind in the gutter.

[fed up with the mess]

PracticalPolyamoryDotCom wrote:

Rising Star in Broomfield said "There is no mention of commitment, bonding and/or cleaving to your spouse here. "
My primary partner and I are as committed to each other and our relationship as any monogamously married couple. We are pledged to invest the time and attention to our relationship necessary to keep it healthy. Polyamorists making it work know that this is key for all involved. We also respect pre-existing relationships and pledge to support them and not to do anything that would undermine them, i.e. indulge in competitive or divisive behavior. With these commitments in place, it works and works very well.
I've done it the traditional way, which I eventually determined wasn't right for me. I've never been happier or more secure in my relationships, and my partners say the same. A different kind of fidelity, to be sure, but still fidelitious.
"A man or woman could instaneously use the excuse that he or she was tired of the relationship(s) and take off without any thought of penalty or remorse...why? Because the next man/woman (Jody or Jackie) is there to pick up the slack. "
It doesn't work that way. If you were to lose a child, would having others make the pain of the loss any less significant? Yes, it's great to have support from other partners, but it in no way spares us the pain and grief of loss. Humans aren't wired that way.
"Now in a tribal community, that would be enviable - but in our society i.e. urban community - that practice is vilified by those who don't live that lifestyle as being irresponsible, savage and continuing a cycle of poverty - why? Because no one is there to pick up the slack after the incessant bed-hopping, multiple relationships and free-will living. "
Let me set the record straight. Polyamory is NOT about the sex any more than monogamous relationships are about sex. I am sometimes amazed at how people immediately assume this is the case - makes me wonder who really has their mind in the gutter.

It is about sex. Why would a man want more than one wife. When wife #1 stops giving it up he has 2 spares in the house to plug up to. He never runs out of sex and you know it works like this. When wife #2 is too tired for making it he just bed hops over to wife #3 and when she has a headache he just hops back to #1 again.

[Joyce]

RISING STAR wrote:

<quoted text>
Joyce - you are nasty. You have no sense of loyalty, commitment, self-control or dedication. You seem bent on taking your body through its paces, your mind to the races and your spirit bound in laces.
Yeah, I know it rhymes...sorry. But the living such an anarchistic life doesn't cut it for the rest of the world who are trying to keep it together - so the lazy ones such as yourself can "enjoy" themselves.

Ah. So mature, adult communication and self-awareness, for you, qualifies as being disloyal and all that. Fascinating. Do you think it is more loyal to lie to your spouse about your feelings? Less nasty to hide how you really feel? It is more committed to not be there when your partner needs you? I must disagree.

And lazy?! Really? I should show you my google calendar sometimes. It's a nightmare just trying to keep up with everyone some of the time.

It's not always "enjoyable." When you hold your lover in your arms and comfort her because she just broke up with her other partner, it's not "enjoyable." When I passed out while moving into my new place with my wife, and my boyfriend was taking care of me and bringing me water and holding my head, it wasn't "enjoyable." When a lover attempts suicide and you and all her other lovers get together to try and help her and to support one another, it's not "enjoyable."

We're people, living and loving. And we're not doing it for the "sexual pleasure of it" or any of that. We're bonding together in the face of life's obstacles. And we're doing it together. It's just like any monogamous relationship... we just might add more people.

[Joyce]

fed up with the mess wrote:

<quoted text>It is about sex. Why would a man want more than one wife. When wife #1 stops giving it up he has 2 spares in the house to plug up to. He never runs out of sex and you know it works like this. When wife #2 is too tired for making it he just bed hops over to wife #3 and when she has a headache he just hops back to #1 again.

If you actually talked to a polyamorous family, you'd see that this isn't actually the case.

[fed up with the mess]

Joyce wrote:

<quoted text>
If you actually talked to a polyamorous family, you'd see that this isn't actually the case.

A polyamorous family is clearly out of GODS order. A polyamorous family is clearly going against what thus says the LORD and giving into the lustful flesh. Marriage is between on man and one woman period! Anything outside of the marriage is sinful and you are willingfully disobeying GOD because you can and there is no one to stop you. For now that is,however you will be held accountable for your sinful actions even if you don't believe so you are just fooling yourself.

[Joyce]

fed up with the mess wrote:

<quoted text>A polyamorous family is clearly out of GODS order. A polyamorous family is clearly going against what thus says the LORD and giving into the lustful flesh. Marriage is between on man and one woman period! Anything outside of the marriage is sinful and you are willingfully disobeying GOD because you can and there is no one to stop you. For now that is,however you will be held accountable for your sinful actions even if you don't believe so you are just fooling yourself.

You know... it's funny. If your God really feels this way, then your God does not stand for equality, justice, and love. My service is to those ideals, not to your God, and if your God stands against equality, justice, and love, then I stand against your God.

However, I really don't think your God believes what you think he does. If your God exists and the Bible is his scripture, then I suspect that when you go to meet him, he's going to smack you upside the head for ignoring what he wrote down.

I've read a lot of Christian scripture including most of the Pentateuch and New Testament. I've read a lot about a large number of things that are both encouraged an denied with vehemence. Polygamy is very popular amongst many early biblical figures, with many passages making much of their many wives. Strictures against homosexuality are given as much weight as strictures against eating shellfish and wearing clothing of more than one kind of thread. Most Christians argue that most of these strictures are overridden by the doctrines of Christ, yet they do not argue such about the strictures against homosexuality. Even further, there are questions about the translation of the passages that modern Christians believe speak about homosexuality. Many scholars argue that these passages are actually talking about prostitution, not homosexuality.

You folks rarely agree on the literal translation of the bible, and when you do agree on a translation, you can't agree on which laws to follow and which ones to not follow. I don't think your opinion that my lifestyle "is against GOD" could even be from your GOD at all. I think you, and others like you, are creating a "law of man" to oppress people like myself and others, that choose to live lives outside the bounds of heterosexual monogamous marriage. And isn't there something in the bible about following the "laws of man?"

Besides... according to your Bible, your God routinely hung out with homeless bums and prostitutes and sinners and stuff when he was incarnate in the flesh. He seemed more interested in encouraging people to fix themselves rather than pointing out other people's problems. I'd bet that he would have been a pretty cool guy to hang out with, no pun intended.:P

[Mechgogo]

Joyce, I have to say you present some extremely rational and thoughtful arguments. Unfortunately I think they're wasted on F'ed Up and his little friend. Either they're a couple trolls trying to string this along as long as possible because they've got nothing else going on in their lives and no other way to get attention or they actually BELIEVE the drek they're spewing. In either case reason and logic aren't gonna do much good.

The part that they refuse to understand-well one part among many-is what you and I and every other poly on the planet knows in their bones. Being poly takes GREATER commitment because it's harder. More peoples feelings to consider, more juggling of schedules, more relationships to maintain and no more hours in a day to do it than a monogamist gets. Loving ones spouses is easy. Well, as long as I"M not one of the spouses it is hehehehe. Dunno how my girls put up with me but I'm SO GLAD they do :). Making it all work? THAT takes effort and it damn sure ain't for those who aren't dedicated. Good luck to you in continuing to make your situation work. Sounds like you've got a good handle on things. Oh, and if you do Live Journal do a search some time for the user munchkin_bob. I have a little poly/alt lifer LJ I write called Reindeer Games . You might find it interesting. Either way, best of luck to you and yours.
Mech out

[Salem]

Joyce wrote:

<quoted text>
Interesting. One of my friends/sometimes lovers is a child of polyamorous parents, and she seems just fine. She lives with her girlfriend and her girlfriend's wife and is a successful writer and political activist.
I've met a few other folks that are children of poly parents, young and old, and they all seem very well balanced, happy, and comfortable.
I'm not sure what you're looking at, but perhaps you should do a bit of research before assuming that folks are going to end up badly just because they're not living your approved lifestyle?

I have to say that my mom and my aunt are two of the most psychologically damaged individuals I have ever known, and they are the result of a marriage that stayed together because thats "what your supposed to do". My grandomther didn't even want to have kids, but "thats what your supposed to do". Obviously, its much better to do as society prescribes and stay in a relationship with an angry alocholic who sexually abuses his wife and daughter. Because divorce is evil. Happiness is evil. It only has to look like love on the outside.

[Salem]

fed up with the mess wrote:

<quoted text>That is all I have is an opinion and so do a lot of others. That is why your lifestyle is not mainstream and never will be.

Actually I read a statistic that I found quite interesting. Over all of history, of all societies recorded - only 16% practiced monogamy.(Im pretty sure thats an accurate number...I know it was in the teens.) That of course isnt taking into account the fact that we are not naturally sexually monogomous anyway - and even though people may be in committed relationships, they will tend to cheat. Or... the fact that humans do not naturally form life long monogamous pairs, and typically try a few relationships out before settling on one......only to divorce them later.
I dont know... sounds pretty mainstream to me. Then again... most people just lie about it. Poly people tend to insist on honesty in their relationships... and communication.

[Salem]

RISING STAR wrote:

<quoted text>
Joyce - you are nasty. You have no sense of loyalty, commitment, self-control or dedication.......But the living such an anarchistic life doesn't cut it for the rest of the world who are trying to keep it together - so the lazy ones such as yourself can "enjoy" themselves.

Because of course, it requires LESS loyalty, commitment, self-control (not to mention self awareness, and an ability to be introspective), and dedication to have more than one love at a time. Because it would require less effort on ones part to be constantly considering everyones feelings - including your own. It would require more loyalty and commitment to decide to leave a relationship and pursue another instead. And certainly, you must have no self control at all if you are able to manage your own feelings of jealousy, or envy when your love is enjoying time with someone else.

[Salem]

You know... reading through this long line of comments I am really struck by the fact that there are basically two people sitting there screeching "GOD! nasty! Freaky! GOD! LORD! Sex!!!" and for some reason, intelligent people are wasting their energy trying to make them understand that which they will refuse to hear.

And this is a very sharp contrast to my favorite poly forum where the wit, intelligence, and introspection displayed by those people really moves me every time I read their posts.

But, I figured I would get my point of view out there just in case some curious person, with some level of intelligence, and a discerning mind happened to come across this thread.

So, for anyone who would really like to get more information about the reality of a poly lifestyle, you should definitely read that first article that was linked to. The podcasts and forum at polyweekly.com are really an amazing resource as well.

And thats about all I have to say about that.

[Joyce]

Mechgogo wrote:

Joyce, I have to say you present some extremely rational and thoughtful arguments. Unfortunately I think they're wasted on F'ed Up and his little friend.

Aw! Thanks! I haven't had a good online argument in a while, so I thought I'd give this a whirl. I'm not really trying to argue with these folks, but I'm just trying to dispel their misinformation. I want people to know that poly people aren't the baby-eating monsters that people like "f'ed up" are trying to claim. We're actually quite normal in a lot of ways.

Mechgogo wrote:

Being poly takes GREATER commitment because it's harder. More peoples feelings to consider, more juggling of schedules, more relationships to maintain and no more hours in a day to do it than a monogamist gets.

Interesting. I'd have to disagree in general. I think that being poly *can* and often *does* take more commitment than many monogamous relationships, but that's not necessarily the case. I've seen it go both ways. I've seen monogamous relationships that take more commitment and polyamorous relationships that take mroe commitment. It's all contextual, right?

Mechgogo wrote:

Making it all work? THAT takes effort and it damn sure ain't for those who aren't dedicated.

*laughs* Indeed. Of course, the same can be said of monogamous relationships. Love is easy. It's putting in the work and effort that is hard. And that takes dedication, loyalty, and commitment. I've seen a lot of people, monogamous and polyamorous both, that have thrown themselves into relationships they couldn't handle because they couldn't provide those qualities to the relationship(s).

Mechgogo wrote:

Good luck to you in continuing to make your situation work. Sounds like you've got a good handle on things.

Thanks. I think I'm learning how to improve my handle on things as time goes on. I've made lots of mistakes and suffered for it time and again. Hooray for the school of hard knocks, eh?

[fed up with the mess]

Salem wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually I read a statistic that I found quite interesting. Over all of history, of all societies recorded - only 16% practiced monogamy.(Im pretty sure thats an accurate number...I know it was in the teens.) That of course isnt taking into account the fact that we are not naturally sexually monogomous anyway - and even though people may be in committed relationships, they will tend to cheat. Or... the fact that humans do not naturally form life long monogamous pairs, and typically try a few relationships out before settling on one......only to divorce them later.
I dont know... sounds pretty mainstream to me. Then again... most people just lie about it. Poly people tend to insist on honesty in their relationships... and communication.

You can arugue all you want. GOD has rules and you are out of order.

[RISING STAR]

Joyce wrote:

<quoted text>
You know... it's funny. If your God really feels this way, then your God does not stand for equality, justice, and love. My service is to those ideals, not to your God, and if your God stands against equality, justice, and love, then I stand against your God.
However, I really don't think your God believes what you think he does. If your God exists and the Bible is his scripture, then I suspect that when you go to meet him, he's going to smack you upside the head for ignoring what he wrote down.
I've read a lot of Christian scripture including most of the Pentateuch and New Testament. I've read a lot about a large number of things that are both encouraged an denied with vehemence. Polygamy is very popular amongst many early biblical figures, with many passages making much of their many wives. Strictures against homosexuality are given as much weight as strictures against eating shellfish and wearing clothing of more than one kind of thread. Most Christians argue that most of these strictures are overridden by the doctrines of Christ, yet they do not argue such about the strictures against homosexuality. Even further, there are questions about the translation of the passages that modern Christians believe speak about homosexuality. Many scholars argue that these passages are actually talking about prostitution, not homosexuality.
You folks rarely agree on the literal translation of the bible, and when you do agree on a translation, you can't agree on which laws to follow and which ones to not follow. I don't think your opinion that my lifestyle "is against GOD" could even be from your GOD at all. I think you, and others like you, are creating a "law of man" to oppress people like myself and others, that choose to live lives outside the bounds of heterosexual monogamous marriage. And isn't there something in the bible about following the "laws of man?"
Besides... according to your Bible, your God routinely hung out with homeless bums and prostitutes and sinners and stuff when he was incarnate in the flesh. He seemed more interested in encouraging people to fix themselves rather than pointing out other people's problems. I'd bet that he would have been a pretty cool guy to hang out with, no pun intended.:P

Joyce - Since we're going there. Jesus, I believe, came to fulfill the Law. He did hang out with the sinners - and He did forgive them for their sins. I also believe than when He or they departed - He told them to "go and sin no more". Most people believe that Jesus was a long haired guy who held "self-esteem" parties and fish fries and drank new wine (non-alcoholic) with the fellows or that He was cute baby who mellowed out with the Bee Gees from afar and soothed the animals.

One of the names of Jesus is "The Lion of Judah" - meaning, you don't have to follow those laws as such, but remember - sinning is still wrong and I remind you not to do it after being introduced to Me, or face the consequences, though He still loves us.

Those laws were meant to get us closer to holiness. You don't have to follow them because He is the Chief Priest and rules over the Levites (as in "Levitical Law")- but the mention about homosexuality and wives and husbands is mentioned in many more scriptures than that - making them just as valid as examples to be followed today as they were to be followed then.

[RISING STAR]

Salem wrote:

<quoted text>
Because of course, it requires LESS loyalty, commitment, self-control (not to mention self awareness, and an ability to be introspective), and dedication to have more than one love at a time. Because it would require less effort on ones part to be constantly considering everyones feelings - including your own. It would require more loyalty and commitment to decide to leave a relationship and pursue another instead. And certainly, you must have no self control at all if you are able to manage your own feelings of jealousy, or envy when your love is enjoying time with someone else.

Sorry, you're wrong. It takes more courage and commitment to stay with the one person - knowing that you will never experience the touch or togetherness of another for the term of your life here on earth. That takes courage to not experiment with Mary down the street. It takes loyalty to stick with that one person through any and all sickness - not straying or banging the girlfriend in the next room because spouse number 1 is too ill. It takes dedication and retrospective to become the other half of one person - not the wishy/washy partner of say two or three people - a chameleon not knowing who or what you really are because you've become everything to all.

[BONNYOSHEA]

fed up with the mess wrote:

This mess was on oprah yesterday. The man had 3 wives of which 2 were sisters. How nasty! People have no morals in this world and they are getting worse.

the mormon church must be so proud.....