Liability issues slowing speed of commuter train project

A state House panel gave a critical first approval Thursday to the lawsuit limits that CSX Corp.

[Stop CFL Rail Now]

The facts are very clear, the cost of the CFL Rail continues to climb.

The true cost of CFL Rail is being withheld from taxpayers. No one really knows how much this will cost when all is said and done. The new $200 million dollar insurance expensive mentioned here is only the beginning of the "hidden" costs for CFL Rail. Not to mention this newly reported expense is an ongoing expense (insurance expense) that will increase over time. This is not a onetime expense.

The taxpayers who overwhelmingly oppose CFL Rail will be stuck covering the cost for CSX and all of the unreported and unknown costs. This is a very sweet deal for CSX and an expensive deal for taxpayers.

"We'd have to kill 2,001 persons" to use all the insurance coverage,"

What kind of statement or "logic" is this?

Please note the lobbyist that attended this hearing - Disney, FL Hospital, Orlando Chamber. No one is representing or promoting the general welfare of the people.

Additionally, with all the reports of having to cut regular public services because of falling tax revenues, how can these people vote or support spending Billions of tax dollars (federal, state, local) for CFL Rail?

To go forward with CFL Rail at this time is so unethical and demonstrates a total lack of fiscal accountability. How can anyone support spending Billions of tax dollars like this now??? Are the elected officials this out of touch with the state of our economy at the federal, state and local levels?

Funding CFL Rail is the wrong thing to do.

Please contact your elected officials and oppose this abuse and waste of tax dollars while we face a recession and other economic hardships along with other more critical issues.

Contact Tallahassee now

Florida Senate
http://www.flsenate.gov/Welcome/index.cfm ...

Florida House
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/

Governor's Office
http://www.flgov.com/contact_governor

Thank you.

[THE CITY BEAT]

SOMEBODY IN TALLAHASSEE IS GOING TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY. SORRY , JUST MADE A LOT OF MONEY

[Jak]

Automakers and autodealers are not interested on mass transportation, they are in the underground against mass transportation and with the high gas prices, people in general are suffering the consequences of not having mass transportation.

[Elisabeth]

What a narrow-minded, ridiculous outlook. Maybe since your post says you're from Englewood Colorado, you don't realize how traffic congestion is literally choking Central Florida to death. We need this project desperately. You need to read the article: There were elected representatives who attended the meeting along with businesses -- 40 people! That's a lot of people who understand how badly we need this project. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than building new roads.

Stop CFL Rail Now wrote:

The facts are very clear, the cost of the CFL Rail continues to climb.
The true cost of CFL Rail is being withheld from taxpayers. No one really knows how much this will cost when all is said and done. The new $200 million dollar insurance expensive mentioned here is only the beginning of the "hidden" costs for CFL Rail. Not to mention this newly reported expense is an ongoing expense (insurance expense) that will increase over time. This is not a onetime expense.
The taxpayers who overwhelmingly oppose CFL Rail will be stuck covering the cost for CSX and all of the unreported and unknown costs. This is a very sweet deal for CSX and an expensive deal for taxpayers.
"We'd have to kill 2,001 persons" to use all the insurance coverage,"
What kind of statement or "logic" is this?
Please note the lobbyist that attended this hearing - Disney, FL Hospital, Orlando Chamber. No one is representing or promoting the general welfare of the people.
Additionally, with all the reports of having to cut regular public services because of falling tax revenues, how can these people vote or support spending Billions of tax dollars (federal, state, local) for CFL Rail?
To go forward with CFL Rail at this time is so unethical and demonstrates a total lack of fiscal accountability. How can anyone support spending Billions of tax dollars like this now??? Are the elected officials this out of touch with the state of our economy at the federal, state and local levels?
Funding CFL Rail is the wrong thing to do.
Please contact your elected officials and oppose this abuse and waste of tax dollars while we face a recession and other economic hardships along with other more critical issues.
Contact Tallahassee now
Florida Senate
http://www.flsenate.gov/Welcome/index.cfm ...
Florida House
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/
Governor's Office
http://www.flgov.com/contact_governor
Thank you.

[Ax the Commuter Rail Tax]

www.Axthetax.org
Stop the boondoggle!
Write your legislators.

[THE CITY BEAT]

We need the rail system like we need another gross of dead rats in OIA. They both smell , are expensive to clean up after, and bring corruption of one kind or another to the area.

[JTF]

I fail to see how someone from Englewood CO has anything to say about solving our problems in Central Florida. The best kind of government is local and attitudes like this are taking away our ability to determine what is best for our community. Over and over again, Florida cities and counties have allowed the legislature to weaken its local representation. And now we have what appears to be a national interest to determine what we do in a local region.

Granted, Central Florida is taking a chunk out of the DOT budget for this, but everyone needs to remember that every single year we generate a whole lot more sales tax in our region than we get back in revenues. And we put up with the impacts of the visitors that pay it. For once, can we do something for a major part of the economic engine that fuels the whole State's economy without whining about it.

[Stop CFL Rail Now]

Jak wrote:

Automakers and autodealers are not interested on mass transportation, they are in the underground against mass transportation and with the high gas prices, people in general are suffering the consequences of not having mass transportation.

CFL has "mass transit". In Orange County it is called "Lynx". I know some of you are laughing. Many have laughed (or cried) at Lynx.

Lynx (bus transit) is a key part of a successful commuter rail system. Unfortunately, Lynx and other local mass transit systems have been totally mismanaged and ineffective.

Adding CFL Rail to the current mass transit system only compounds the ineffectiveness mass transit system we have. CFL could have a much better mass transit system for a lot less tax dollars, but this would exclude CSX and Congressman John Mica would not support that type of program. Voters need to remember the CFL Rail is not about improving transportation. It is a political game and we the taxpayers are the losers.

I have been to many public meetings for CFL transportation. I know first hand that elected officials are not interesting in more effective, less expensive alternatives. This is the sad state of affairs today.

Our government is broke - borderline bankrupt, elected officials are selling off our infrastructure while they waste billions of tax dollars on ineffective systems like CFL Rail.

Every American should be totally disgusted and outraged at the way our elected officials sellout the people instead of promoting the general welfare of the people like they took an oath to do and like our Constitution states.

Please call Tallahassee today and oppose this inappropriate use of tax dollars. Promote more effective and less expensive options. There are better solutions.

Thank you.

[WP Driver]

Elisabeth, I think you are wrong. I agree with Stop CFL, this is a colossal mistake that will be costly to taxpayers and will service a few. We're paying a billion dollars to transport 9,000 (their projection) riders of a population of 2,000,000.

If the train were more centrally located near congested roads, I would support rail. If there were a bus system to adequately service the rail, I would support it. I'm not against mass transit, I'm against stupid transit and I think this will not solve our traffic problems and I believe it will sour the region's long term trust in effective mass transportation. It will ultimately close the door for any future projects as taxpayers realize this boondoggle.

The Central Florida mentality is: "I support commuter rail for everyone else to ride, so the roads will be free for my SUV."

The only ones interested in commuter rail are companies near the tracks like, FL Hosp, Sentinel, Rollins, etc., that feel they will be serviced. Well, I have a revelation for you guys. I live very close to Rollins and I've noticed one student who lives two blocks away, she gets in her BMW to drive to school everyday. How will a train change the habits of these individuals? It will not, especially given it's lack of service to the majority of the population.

I bet if the Sentinel were to poll drivers and the Sentinel staff, they would find few will be riding the train to nowhere. Someone should've been honest from the get go, this is CSX "corporate welfare" disguised as "commuter rail". We are pumping money into CSX freight operations and corporations that will ultimately benefit from their distribution center like Wal-Mart.

Those who have paid attention (and aren't members of the Chamber of Commerce) do not support commuter rail for good reason.

[Stop CFL Rail Now]

Elisabeth wrote:

What a narrow-minded, ridiculous outlook. Maybe since your post says you're from Englewood Colorado, you don't realize how traffic congestion is literally choking Central Florida to death. We need this project desperately. You need to read the article: There were elected representatives who attended the meeting along with businesses -- 40 people! That's a lot of people who understand how badly we need this project. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than building new roads.
<quoted text>

Apparently you are not aware that many people travel for business and vacations. I am a native of Orlando. In all likelihood, I have lived in CFL much longer than you. I have seen/witnessed the massive corruption that has resulted in the totally mismanaged transportation system we have in CFL.

Are you familiar with the corruption of the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority and the other 14 toll authorities throughout the state? Are you familiar with the cost associated with operating 26 MPO offices throughout the state? Not to mention the Federal and State DOTs.

Additionally, as I work in CO, I see the empty light rail cars go by every day. They run along I-25. Please let me know if you would like a photo of the empty rail cars next to the congested Interstate highway.

Let me know when you want to learn about CFL and FL transportation. I will gladly give you a lesson in the cost of transportation and present many many many facts that explain why CFL transportation is so "hosed-up". I will also give you a lesson on what a transportation system needs to do. Commuter Rail is very limited. It does not support the overall transportation system. That is one more reason why it is not the best solution for CFL.

The facts clearly show the CFL Rail will do nothing to relieve the current traffic congestion and will waste billions of tax dollars. We need to spend our money on the best solutions - not political favors for Congressman John Mica and his friends as CSX.

Think about the facts and then call Tallahassee today and oppose CFL Rail. It is not the right solution for CFL. The facts all support that statement.

Thank you.

[Stop CFL Rail Now]

JTF wrote:

I fail to see how someone from Englewood CO has anything to say about solving our problems in Central Florida. The best kind of government is local and attitudes like this are taking away our ability to determine what is best for our community. Over and over again, Florida cities and counties have allowed the legislature to weaken its local representation. And now we have what appears to be a national interest to determine what we do in a local region.
Granted, Central Florida is taking a chunk out of the DOT budget for this, but everyone needs to remember that every single year we generate a whole lot more sales tax in our region than we get back in revenues. And we put up with the impacts of the visitors that pay it. For once, can we do something for a major part of the economic engine that fuels the whole State's economy without whining about it.

"I fail to see how someone from Englewood CO has anything to say about solving our problems in Central Florida. The best kind of government is local and attitudes like this are taking away our ability to determine what is best for our community."

First off, I am a native of Orlando. Thus, as a resident I have every right to voice my opinion on this issue. I will be back in Orlando this afternoon. Would you like to meet and discuss FL and CFL transportation? I will gladly meet with you and give you a lesson on transportation.

Secondly, even if I did not live in FL, I pay federal tax dollars - federal tax dollars will be used to fund CFL commuter rail while our national highways/Interstates are collapsing. Thus, I have every right to oppose this abuse of federal tax dollars.

I have every right to oppose wasting our tax dollars on ineffective transportation system. There are better solutions for less tax dollars.

Call Tallahassee today and oppose this ineffective expensive project.

Thank you.

[Stop CFL Rail Now]

WP Driver wrote:

Elisabeth, I think you are wrong. I agree with Stop CFL, this is a colossal mistake that will be costly to taxpayers and will service a few. We're paying a billion dollars to transport 9,000 (their projection) riders of a population of 2,000,000.
If the train were more centrally located near congested roads, I would support rail. If there were a bus system to adequately service the rail, I would support it. I'm not against mass transit, I'm against stupid transit and I think this will not solve our traffic problems and I believe it will sour the region's long term trust in effective mass transportation. It will ultimately close the door for any future projects as taxpayers realize this boondoggle.
The Central Florida mentality is: "I support commuter rail for everyone else to ride, so the roads will be free for my SUV."
The only ones interested in commuter rail are companies near the tracks like, FL Hosp, Sentinel, Rollins, etc., that feel they will be serviced. Well, I have a revelation for you guys. I live very close to Rollins and I've noticed one student who lives two blocks away, she gets in her BMW to drive to school everyday. How will a train change the habits of these individuals? It will not, especially given it's lack of service to the majority of the population.
I bet if the Sentinel were to poll drivers and the Sentinel staff, they would find few will be riding the train to nowhere. Someone should've been honest from the get go, this is CSX "corporate welfare" disguised as "commuter rail". We are pumping money into CSX freight operations and corporations that will ultimately benefit from their distribution center like Wal-Mart.
Those who have paid attention (and aren't members of the Chamber of Commerce) do not support commuter rail for good reason.

Thank you for taking the time to get involved and learn the facts about CFL commuter rail!

I like your expression "Stupid Transit". That is very appropriate for CFL Rail.

And you are so correct....the mentality is "I will be glad when everyone else gets on the rail and I can drive". Ask those that support rail to surrender their car keys....they won't do it.

CFL Rail is not a good solution for CFL. CFL is not NYC or Boston or Chicago.

Thanks again for being an informed citizen.

[Just the Facts]

CFL is not like major northern cities with adequate secondary mass transit systems such as bus, subway, or elevated systems. If someone from Heathrow were to use CFL Rail, they won't, imagine the nightmare of getting to the station via Lynx.

[Mark]

Glorioso's argument is crap. You aren't introducing passengers onto a freight corridor, that would be the case if you put commuters on there now. Once the state buy it, NO LONGER A FREIGHT CORRIDOR. There are so many holes is this argument i can't believe it stays afloat.

[LeagueLady]

Passage and funding of commuter rail is critical for our community's future.

Facts: The Orlando area is currently 9th in congestion in the country, and getting worse every year. Growth estimates by UCF show our population doubling by 2050. Our country is dependent on foreign oil to run our cars. Smart growth experts show that transportation corridors with dense cities enable us to live more energy efficiently while preserving the greenspace to the outskirts of our communities, retaining Florida's natural beauty and wildlife habitat.

This proposal helps business, but helps CITIZENS most importantly. The League of Women Voters has been out in the community holding forums and workshops and hearing strong support from citizens for a multi modal transportation network that provides cost effective alternatives to cars. COMMUTER RAIL IS THE KEY TO OUR ABILITY TO PLAN FOR AND MAINTAIN THE QUALITY OF LIFE for Florida's future. Citizens must be closely involved in how bus routes, bike lanes, and town centers tie in to the new commuter rail system.

It is the spine of a transportation system, and has been VERY successful in cities where it has been designed with citizen input and careful planning. Salt Lake City for example reached its 2020 ridership goals in two years of the system coming on line, and citizens have now voted for more funding to expand it. This is an area much like Central Florida, spread out, and unacustomed to commuter rail. Denver and Dallas have also had great success with their systems.

Commuter rail is the key to Central Florida's ability to live the population of tomorrow, and create a more healthful village type community, where town centers are within walking distance, and we do not continue to build in a sprawling interstate fashion developing all land and creating worse and worse congestion.

These systems take money,yes, but remember we are one of the lowest tax states in the country...ranking about 45th in total taxation, and 50% of the project is being paid for with FEDERAL FUNDS. If we do not SEIZE this opportunity, many other communities will take these funds with delight for their commuter rail projects. We are very fortunate to have had the leadership of Congressman Mica who was chair of the Transportation Committee and was able to get the federal funds for this project, that has the potential to radically improve our quality of life.

The League of Women Voters, a non partisan, all volunteer organization of citizens STRONGLY SUPPORTS commuter rail as the linchpin to a future multi modal transportation system that will offer citizens cost effective "Ways to GET THERE comfortably and economically". Contact your state legislators to let them know you support transportation choices.

www.LWVOC.org

[FDOT Thorn]

I agree with WP Driver and Stop CFL Rail Now. I support alternative transportation options. But, this particular project is horrible. The list of federal new starts project (which is the annual list of projects to be funded by the Federal Transit Administration) does not include this project. Congressman Mica has some plan to introduce legislation that will supposedly bypass the rating and ranking of projects that has been used for years for rail projects. He doing this because the project does not meet Federal financial standards.

The SUBSIDY, meaning money that you and I pay to operate this system, is $29 per passenger per ride!!! The state and others that support this project will argue that the State of Florida will pick up the operating costs for 7 years. That's great. But there is no magic money tree in Tallahassee. Those dollars come from you and me.

This project is corporate welfare at best.

[Stan Smith]

LeagueLady wrote:

Passage and funding of commuter rail is critical for our community's future.
Facts: The Orlando area is currently 9th in congestion in the country, and getting worse every year. Growth estimates by UCF show our population doubling by 2050. Our country is dependent on foreign oil to run our cars. Smart growth experts show that transportation corridors with dense cities enable us to live more energy efficiently while preserving the greenspace to the outskirts of our communities, retaining Florida's natural beauty and wildlife habitat.
This proposal helps business, but helps CITIZENS most importantly. The League of Women Voters has been out in the community holding forums and workshops and hearing strong support from citizens for a multi modal transportation network that provides cost effective alternatives to cars. COMMUTER RAIL IS THE KEY TO OUR ABILITY TO PLAN FOR AND MAINTAIN THE QUALITY OF LIFE for Florida's future. Citizens must be closely involved in how bus routes, bike lanes, and town centers tie in to the new commuter rail system.
It is the spine of a transportation system, and has been VERY successful in cities where it has been designed with citizen input and careful planning. Salt Lake City for example reached its 2020 ridership goals in two years of the system coming on line, and citizens have now voted for more funding to expand it. This is an area much like Central Florida, spread out, and unacustomed to commuter rail. Denver and Dallas have also had great success with their systems.
Commuter rail is the key to Central Florida's ability to live the population of tomorrow, and create a more healthful village type community, where town centers are within walking distance, and we do not continue to build in a sprawling interstate fashion developing all land and creating worse and worse congestion.
These systems take money,yes, but remember we are one of the lowest tax states in the country...ranking about 45th in total taxation, and 50% of the project is being paid for with FEDERAL FUNDS. If we do not SEIZE this opportunity, many other communities will take these funds with delight for their commuter rail projects. We are very fortunate to have had the leadership of Congressman Mica who was chair of the Transportation Committee and was able to get the federal funds for this project, that has the potential to radically improve our quality of life.
The League of Women Voters, a non partisan, all volunteer organization of citizens STRONGLY SUPPORTS commuter rail as the linchpin to a future multi modal transportation system that will offer citizens cost effective "Ways to GET THERE comfortably and economically". Contact your state legislators to let them know you support transportation choices.
www.LWVOC.org

Commuter rail does not work.
The problem with the gobblegood from the League of Women Vipers is the following:
- According to FDOT statitics - less than 1/10th of 1% MAY use rail in 20 years.
- More air pollution
- More congestion
-$1.5 billion in costs
- Dozens of empty trains crossing every road in central Florida every 20 minutes.
- Smoke belching diesal trains blaring ear piercing horns every 90 feet.
- Commuter rail is a boondoggle and should be stopped.
That's why I support Doug Guetzloe and Ax the Tax.
Stop the boondoggle - Ax the Commuter Rail tax - www.axthetax.org

Join the real revolutionaries - Ax the Tax!

[WP Driver]

LeagueLady, it's easy to punch holes in your arguments.

You are probably right about our congestion ranking, I don't disagree. I do however take issue with the following:

"Growth estimates by UCF" - this department at UCF, MyRegion.org , is run by the very woman responsible for creating urban sprawl in Central Florida, the darling to developers, the political machine that ruined our countryside in the first place - Former Mayor Linda Chapin. Their program is so full of s*** it's embarrassing. Ms. Chapin has fostered out of control growth by her population forecasts which until last year aided and abetted developers. So what? She's changed her tune from the 1980s-1990s mantra, "develop everywhere property rights!! property rights" to "densifying cities at the expense of a community's character is better for everyone". Nothing new under the sun.

Where are these multitudes of people she claimed? Look at the condo glut throughout Orange County. The foreclosure rate in Central Florida is at an alarming high, not because of new homeowners as much as resident speculators trying to take advantage of a market that didn't exist and predatory lending of course.

"This proposal helps business, but helps CITIZENS most importantly."

Explain how this helps citizens. These blanket statements are dangerous. I nor anyone I know plan on using commuter rail, not because we're difficult, but because commuter rail does not provide service to places we frequent.

"The League of Women Voters has been out in the community holding forums and workshops and hearing strong support from citizens for a multi modal transportation network that provides cost effective alternatives to cars."

Are you sure about this? Where and when? I witnessed inappropriate and bullying behavior by LOWV members who took hold of our city's rail advisory committee. Their power grabbing was stunning and they completely ignored the residents and board members who questioned the veracity of their proposal. Not once did they answer questions, but showed disdain towards the citizens who wanted answers. Is that leadership? Where do you get strong support - chamber meetings?

COMMUTER RAIL IS THE KEY TO OUR ABILITY TO PLAN FOR AND MAINTAIN THE QUALITY OF LIFE for Florida's future. Citizens must be closely involved in how bus routes, bike lanes, and town centers tie in to the new commuter rail system.

Are you mistaking "citizens" for what should be "politicians". Or maybe replace the word "citizens" with "developers" - that's a more accurate account of what's happening.

"Careful planning"? Citizens in WP asked for traffic studies and were ignored. Asked for ridership surveys, ignored. Asked for protection on O&M, and again were ignored.

Charlotte NC recently began a thorough study of commuter rail BEFORE signing off on deals with CSX. Like every other proposal that happens in Central Florida, the leaders in our community blindly accept this agreement without any investigation.

Remeber, John Mica is a career politician. His millions did not come from operating a business but from insider trading in Washington and his lack of business skills are demonstrated by his endorsement and push to bring this project to the community without responsible review . At best, Mica is a wheeler dealer who has spent his life servicing big industry in Washington. His allegiance is to big business and lobbyists and we will eventually pay the price.

[Ax the Commuter Rail Tax]

"The League of Women Voters has been out in the community holding forums and workshops and hearing strong support from citizens for a multi modal transportation network that provides cost effective alternatives to cars."

Rail has been voted down four times by the voters of Central Florida. 70% of all survey's show voter opposition. The facts are clear - Central Florida taxpayers don't want commuter rail or it's liabilities.

[PAUL K]

Ax the Commuter Rail Tax wrote:

"The League of Women Voters has been out in the community holding forums and workshops and hearing strong support from citizens for a multi modal transportation network that provides cost effective alternatives to cars."
Rail has been voted down four times by the voters of Central Florida. 70% of all survey's show voter opposition. The facts are clear - Central Florida taxpayers don't want commuter rail or it's liabilities.

You are so right leave commuter rails up north or in europe we inbreeders love sitting on I-4 gives us time to maybe read the paper, get into a road rage shoot out, and just have some good old alone time as I sit and wait as if I have nothing better to do with my time