Prop. 4 passes: Amendment to help UTEP become research power

[Isabel]

DarkMan wrote:

<quoted text>In a perfect world that is how it is supposed to work, but these students WERE from juarez. They were always whining about how long the bridge lines were. Oh and FYI they do get financial aid and they also pay in state tuition, which is bs by the way. They live in another country, why do they rate IST?

Well, I actually worked in the Office of International Program at UTEP for about two semesters. I'm not an expert but I learned a thing or two during my employment. Yes, Mexican students are provided the opportunity to pay in state tuition but they have to qualify. Here's the link if you care to see for yourself.

http://studentaffairs.utep.edu/Default.aspx...

Honestly, the process seems much easier on paper because it's truthfully a nightmare. Anyway, I don't think it's fair that you label ALL Mexican students as incompetent degree purchasers. That's a major stereotype on your part. I too have known of students who cheat their way through college, both American and Mexican, but that's a personal problem they're going to have to deal with in the long run. However, I know of extremely intelligent students from Mexico that study extra hard because English is not their native language.

I'm not trying to argue with you but to be honest with you, holding such strong stereotypes and prejudice towards Mexican students is not something to brag about. There is actually substantial psychology research that indicates that stereotypes are held by those who are threatened by what they are not familiar with (e.g. an out-group member); therefore, they are upset by their ignorance. We both know that you are neither threatened nor ignorant.

[Need to work to educate]

EP schools are flooded with Mexican nationals from 7th grade through highschool. They don't have to verify residencey and many use a local address. Illegals get free education in Texas and then those who want to stay flood UTEP. Those are aside from the tiny percentage that come daily from Juarez.

And Juarez students DO GET financial aid. It isn't the same one US students get but they get grants and loans, someone sent my an email addressed to a Mexican student (which I am NOT) by accident. So the only idiots are the ones who pretend EP isn't a Juarez Mexico city. Not all but most of those students are rude and arrogant.

[Uteppoooooo]

W/r to Co-ops.

Co-ops rarely do anything useful. It is usually a PR thing. Many companies only do the Co-op programs to show that they are contributing to the communities. It's like public charity. Don't be fooled by people who are on these things claiming great experience and success.

W/r to FA,

Financial aide is indeed only for US Citizens and Resident Aliens. Nothing more than that.

W/r to quality of education.

There's very little to discuss. It's a public school with no great reputation.

W/r to mexican students being better than US students.

In some cases they are and in some not. This applies across the globe.

So, you all want a GRADE A institution?

Money will help.

Relationships with private industry will help.

Recruitment of PhDs from highly accredited universities will help.

Get certified by ABET.

Get heavily involved in research and development of new tech.

Drop all the Maquiladora ingeniero breeding that is what the university currently produces.

Don't give degrees to people simply 'cause they pay and attend.

Increase out-of-state enrollment.

Give people reasons to come to this school.

Get technical jobs in El Paso.

[OutInTheWestTexa sTown]

Gunslinger915 wrote:

<quoted text> You assume an awful lot for someone who don't know much. I would dazzle you with my B.S. Degreee, but I won't. The Mexican students are an EXCEPTION because they are here. They are GIVEN advantages over other students, U.S. Citizen students. And why is that?? Because they CANNOT meet the same standards as the other students. The standards, requirements are LOWER at UTEP than for other University of Texas schools. IF you are in California, then I would think that Citizen students are faced with the same discriminatory standards there.

This is a big reason why UTEP will not make the tier, that is to say that the standards for admission are so low as to allow a trained monkey to enroll at UTEP. Yes, this is an exageration but it is simply to reinforce the comment.

[OutInTheWestTexa sTown]

MES wrote:

<quoted text> Your comments shows your superior intellect. Some people seem to always take a negative view of things. That is very sad and upsetting. By the way, I'll bet these Mexican students can run circle's around most (not all)(
U.S. students when it comes to math.

It's simply called manners, respect for others, attitude and taking to heart the old saying, when in Rome do like the Romans do. They are not back home, when they are then they can act like a bunch of arseholes and do what they want to do in their own country.
Would you act this way in front of your parents?
You seem to support these negative behaviors and attitudes.
It is not acceptable for this especially in a system of higher education be it UTEP or HARVARD or La Tuna Tech.

[OutInTheWestTexa sTown]

free your mind wrote:

<quoted text>
...with higher standards.
so given your argument, would it be better for those students to not attend college at all? to accept a life of mediocrity, instead of seeking to excel and achieve a better way of living?

They should attempt to become better persons, but why can't they do it on their own dime instead of on Uncle Sam's?
If they need financial aid then get it from their own countries government and stay and get an education in Mexico or which ever country these persons come from.
If those countries do not offer financial aid then work and go to school to become better educated.
Universities teach theory, in the real world theory usually doesn't apply in a practical sense. Not alway but in most cases it does, just like common sense prevails over genius in the real world.

[Rey]

Out west, good point.

I would venture most college towns complain about the students' behavior and academic efforts because most students are young people away from parental supervision and go wild.

[OutInTheWestTexa sTown]

teacher wrote:

<quoted text>This is exactly why I didn't vote for this ammendment. I do not come from El Paso. I received a Bachelors Degree from a University in NY and a Masters from a University in Indiana. When I came here I had to take some courses to get another certification in my field. I took some graduate classes. What a complete joke. I had a few peers that couldn't even read or write sitting next to me in graduate classes. I took over 40 graduate hours and not once did I ever have to go to the library or do any big time research. Not once did I have to do any heavy studying or big research assignments. When I did attend the other two universities I was always in the library studying, I was involved in study groups and had a ton of preparation for my classes. UTEP is a joke! for a university. Someone please tell me why they do not actively recruit our top ten percent students from El Paso schools. These kids are going off to other places to get a real education. Sitting in UTEP classes is like sitting in middle school classrooms. Expectations are not there. Do I believe the MAJORITY of students are buying their degrees---you bet---- Until the expectations and the student recruitment change at UTEP I will be voting for anything and everything to keep monies going toward them. No one should be sitting in a tier one university classroom taking remedial courses. This can and should be done at community colleges or better yet---- study and do your work in high school to prepare you for college.

Amen, you hit the nail on the head. The admissions standards need to be lifted or raised in order to get better graduates.

[Hater]

free your mind wrote:

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that everyone is focusing students from Mexico. why? there are American students that go to UTEP as well. hell i even know a couple doing co-ops at NASA right now? so much for getting no education at UTEP.
one idiot is stating half the students attending UTEP are from Mexico. are kidding me? were did you get this ridiculous number? that would mean 10,000 Mexicans cross the border everyday to attend UTEP. genius thinking right there. try doing a little educated research. UTEP states its enrollment of Mexican students is 8.7%. way off from your half. retards.
http://studentaffairs.utep.edu/Default.aspx...

OK Let's be real--- Being the "right" color or heritage has it's advantages--- Let's look at it this way--you have 2 candidates-one white-one hispanic. The white kid let's say is an overacheiver. He takes honors courses, studies hard, involved in community service, athletics etc... straight A student with let's say OHHHH an 1800 or better on his SAT's. The other kiddo-hispanic or lets even say black-but today even black doesn't have it's advantages. This kid never takes honor courses, cruises through school--maintains a high B-low A average, maybe involved with one after school activity-let's say athletics never did anything else--got let's say 1700's on his SAT's ---Tell me who is going to get a scholarship?? Who is going to get that internship with NASA?? Who is going to get that "advantage"?---I will tell you---It's NOT going to be that white kid that is busting his butt-- it's going to be that lazy ass "MINORITY"(?)kid. Somehow---being a certain race or heritage DOES have its advantages. Afirmitive Action is another name for reverse discrimination. This is why our country is going to Sh--. If you work hard--and thats the key words--it shouldn't matter who or what you are, you deserve opportunities and chances- UTEP is a joke--this is why they can't and they DO NOT recruit our best high school students.

[Bush Bin Laden]

ONLY real intelligence (real effort in studies not cheating or cronies or who you know)works in the real world.

[Gunslinger915]

Hater wrote:

<quoted text>OK Let's be real--- Being the "right" color or heritage has it's advantages--- Let's look at it this way--you have 2 candidates-one white-one hispanic. The white kid let's say is an overacheiver. He takes honors courses, studies hard, involved in community service, athletics etc... straight A student with let's say OHHHH an 1800 or better on his SAT's. The other kiddo-hispanic or lets even say black-but today even black doesn't have it's advantages. This kid never takes honor courses, cruises through school--maintains a high B-low A average, maybe involved with one after school activity-let's say athletics never did anything else--got let's say 1700's on his SAT's ---Tell me who is going to get a scholarship?? Who is going to get that internship with NASA?? Who is going to get that "advantage"?---I will tell you---It's NOT going to be that white kid that is busting his butt-- it's going to be that lazy **** "MINORITY"(?)kid. Somehow---being a certain race or heritage DOES have its advantages. Afirmitive Action is another name for reverse discrimination. This is why our country is going to Sh--. If you work hard--and thats the key words--it shouldn't matter who or what you are, you deserve opportunities and chances- UTEP is a joke--this is why they can't and they DO NOT recruit our best high school students.

Great comment. The sad truth is, thats exactly how it is. Any student who wants to see discrimination face to face in the U.S., just enroll at UTEP. If you are a student that has worked their butt off for all your school years, always knowing in your own mind "where" you were going, then you should realize from the start that UTEP is below the standards that you have set for yourself. And El Paso Community College is basically in the same boat and how Foreign students are allowed to go to this TAXPAYER supported "Community" college is very questionable.

[free your mind]

Hater wrote:

<quoted text>OK Let's be real--- Being the "right" color or heritage has it's advantages--- Let's look at it this way--you have 2 candidates-one white-one hispanic. The white kid let's say is an overacheiver. He takes honors courses, studies hard, involved in community service, athletics etc... straight A student with let's say OHHHH an 1800 or better on his SAT's. The other kiddo-hispanic or lets even say black-but today even black doesn't have it's advantages. This kid never takes honor courses, cruises through school--maintains a high B-low A average, maybe involved with one after school activity-let's say athletics never did anything else--got let's say 1700's on his SAT's ---Tell me who is going to get a scholarship?? Who is going to get that internship with NASA?? Who is going to get that "advantage"?---I will tell you---It's NOT going to be that white kid that is busting his butt-- it's going to be that lazy **** "MINORITY"(?)kid. Somehow---being a certain race or heritage DOES have its advantages. Afirmitive Action is another name for reverse discrimination. This is why our country is going to Sh--. If you work hard--and thats the key words--it shouldn't matter who or what you are, you deserve opportunities and chances- UTEP is a joke--this is why they can't and they DO NOT recruit our best high school students.

this discussion was not about affirmative action. who cares about affirmative action? how does affirmative action apply to UTEP? a university and community that is predominantly Hispanic or Mexican? UTEP does not get the best recruits, because the best recruits go to "better" universities. why stay at UTEP, when you can got to UT-Austin? or U of A? Colorado?

now your two examples in the post would qualify to enroll in UTEP. here are the admissions requirements: http://academics.utep.edu/Default.aspx...

however, i would highly doubt anyone with an SAT score that high would go to UTEP. more then likely they could end up at Harvard, MIT, John Hopkins, Yale. predominantly white schools? now if your argument was for a Hispanic or Black getting into one of them schools then your argument of affirmative action may have some standing.

[Boot]

You are giving far too much credit to the kid taking AP or advanced courses. I took them my whole life and can honestly say that they are a joke. Had lot's of time to goof off.

As an employer of technical people. I'd hire the guy who worked and got a 3.0 any day over the guy who got a 4.0, but did nothing real.

People place too much emphasis on GPAs and test scores.

W/r to what school you come from. I've had people from MIT who were not worth the first 5 cents their parents paid for the schooling. I've also had kids from little schools with no name who kicked serious ass.

The kids who kick ass have one thing in common. It's something that I call G.A.F.F. It's the GiveAFuckFactor. If you care, you will do an excellent job. If you don't care, no amount of education, degrees or schools will save your butt.

Getting a college degree means one and one thing only. You had the time, patience/persistance to sit through school. Do not confuse having a degree with intelligence. Some of the most intelligent people that I have met do not have degrees. They have real life experience with lots of brain power.

Anyone can get a degree. It's what you do with it after you get it.

Having said all that. I still don't think that your local university is a producer of highly technical, innovative individuals.

The Boot

[Gunslinger915]

Boot wrote:

You are giving far too much credit to the kid taking AP or advanced courses. I took them my whole life and can honestly say that they are a joke. Had lot's of time to goof off.
As an employer of technical people. I'd hire the guy who worked and got a 3.0 any day over the guy who got a 4.0, but did nothing real.
People place too much emphasis on GPAs and test scores.
W/r to what school you come from. I've had people from MIT who were not worth the first 5 cents their parents paid for the schooling. I've also had kids from little schools with no name who kicked serious ****.
The kids who kick **** have one thing in common. It's something that I call G.A.F.F. It's the GiveAFuckFactor. If you care, you will do an excellent job. If you don't care, no amount of education, degrees or schools will save your butt.
Getting a college degree means one and one thing only. You had the time, patience/persistance to sit through school. Do not confuse having a degree with intelligence. Some of the most intelligent people that I have met do not have degrees. They have real life experience with lots of brain power.
Anyone can get a degree. It's what you do with it after you get it.
Having said all that. I still don't think that your local university is a producer of highly technical, innovative individuals.
The Boot

I agree with about every word of your comment. The one big thing is, "College does not make "you" smarter". No amount of hours, years or classroom can give a person "common sense". I have worked with College Grads who could not find their *** with both hands and a flashlight. Have to put some "go getter" high schooler with good common sense in charge, to get the job done. You hit it right on.

[Hater]

free your mind wrote:

<quoted text>
this discussion was not about affirmative action. who cares about affirmative action? how does affirmative action apply to UTEP? a university and community that is predominantly Hispanic or Mexican? UTEP does not get the best recruits, because the best recruits go to "better" universities. why stay at UTEP, when you can got to UT-Austin? or U of A? Colorado?
now your two examples in the post would qualify to enroll in UTEP. here are the admissions requirements: http://academics.utep.edu/Default.aspx...
however, i would highly doubt anyone with an SAT score that high would go to UTEP. more then likely they could end up at Harvard, MIT, John Hopkins, Yale. predominantly white schools? now if your argument was for a Hispanic or Black getting into one of them schools then your argument of affirmative action may have some standing.

Why would I need the admissions requirements? I happen to know them--- My point---why give good monies to a school that has substandard expectations and requirements. UTEP needs to raise their standards up to a higher bar--this way our best and brightest would stay here. By the way-- this whole tier one money issue IS and ALWAYS will be about affirmative action (let's give some more of our hard earned money to the poor mejo) First of all a white kid with those kinds of scores would never get into a Harvard-or MIT. Have you looked at the demographics lately??? Obviously NOT!!! What I said was that being the right color--has its advantages to upper tier schools. If you don't believe me--do your own little survey with some of the white and hispanic kiddos who just graduated high school--look at their SAT/ACT and GPA's --tell me who has the adavantage????

[free your mind]

Hater wrote:

<quoted text>Why would I need the admissions requirements? I happen to know them--- My point---why give good monies to a school that has substandard expectations and requirements. UTEP needs to raise their standards up to a higher bar--this way our best and brightest would stay here. By the way-- this whole tier one money issue IS and ALWAYS will be about affirmative action (let's give some more of our hard earned money to the poor mejo) First of all a white kid with those kinds of scores would never get into a Harvard-or MIT. Have you looked at the demographics lately??? Obviously NOT!!! What I said was that being the right color--has its advantages to upper tier schools. If you don't believe me--do your own little survey with some of the white and hispanic kiddos who just graduated high school--look at their SAT/ACT and GPA's --tell me who has the adavantage????

so just a bunch of opinions in this comment. to what standards do you suppose UTEP's should be comparable to? UTEP's standards are based on the community of people the university provides a service for.

raising standards will not keep the brightest people in EPT. what is your rationale for this? the brightest people will still leave. EPT is a s**thole with low paying jobs and low balling employers. companies do not come to EPT to pay hi wages, they come here because they know they can pay lower wages.

how about you find me some statistics? do some research and get some links for your ever so changing traditionally white schools turning black or brown? then maybe you will be able to continue this conversation.

[free your mind]

Boot wrote:

You are giving far too much credit to the kid taking AP or advanced courses. I took them my whole life and can honestly say that they are a joke. Had lot's of time to goof off.
As an employer of technical people. I'd hire the guy who worked and got a 3.0 any day over the guy who got a 4.0, but did nothing real.
People place too much emphasis on GPAs and test scores.
W/r to what school you come from. I've had people from MIT who were not worth the first 5 cents their parents paid for the schooling. I've also had kids from little schools with no name who kicked serious ****.
The kids who kick **** have one thing in common. It's something that I call G.A.F.F. It's the GiveAFuckFactor. If you care, you will do an excellent job. If you don't care, no amount of education, degrees or schools will save your butt.
Getting a college degree means one and one thing only. You had the time, patience/persistance to sit through school. Do not confuse having a degree with intelligence. Some of the most intelligent people that I have met do not have degrees. They have real life experience with lots of brain power.
Anyone can get a degree. It's what you do with it after you get it.
Having said all that. I still don't think that your local university is a producer of highly technical, innovative individuals.
The Boot

everything you say is true, but the highly, innovative individuals do not stay in EPT, so it going to be hard to evaluate that. if your talking about the individuals that stay in EPT then your correct. however, i would say that if there was an actual study done on the success of graduates leaving in EPT. i would venture to say it is pretty positive, the reason being is your GAFF.

[Boot]

Truthfully speaking, all universities produce good kids with a very basic understanding of some very basic principles. In addition to education, you have to build ATTITUDE into these kids. ATTITUDE is a huge part of being successful. I've hired kids out of schools like UTEP and kids out of MIT. Usually, the MIT kids have the ATTITUDE that makes them think they are successful. Kids coming out of the lower tier schools tend to not have that ATTITUDE.

I can't say that the other schools taught anything better than UTEP. However, kids from some of these other schools have some better experience and ATTITUDE.

A winning attitude only helps feed the G.A.F.F. Get your kids thinking G.A.F.F and you will produce winners. Get your kids thinking they are substandard and that's exactly what you will breed.

Good conversation.

[Patrick]

Just remember, you have to live with what and how you voted.

[Boot]

Just remember that what you vote for and what you get are two completely different things. Did you vote for people who would go into public office and not carry out your wishes? Did you vote for people who would make a career out of public office? Did you vote for people to do good favors for their wealthy friends? What exactly did your vote mean?