Landis Lawyer Offers Dehydration Defe...

Landis Lawyer Offers Dehydration Defense

There are 73 comments on the The Associated Press story from Aug 3, 2006, titled Landis Lawyer Offers Dehydration Defense . In it, The Associated Press reports that:

Dehydration is the latest possible reason offered for Tour de France winner Floyd Landis' elevated testosterone levels.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Associated Press.

Caren

Dekalb, IL

#21 Aug 4, 2006
"slow rider" come on.. you know he did it... no way could he have recoved that well, and blew even his team off to singluarly wipe out the competition after being completely down.

Sweetheart, Phonak took Landis as far as they could that day. And everyone has bad days and they still get up and ride the next day. And personally I think the only reason he DID wipe out the competition is because I'm betting they were thinking they'd see him again later that day. Not many of the breakaway groups had managed to stay ahead of the peloton. I don't think they expected him to be able to break away that early and STAY away. I think by the time they figured out he wasn't coming back, it was too late to catch him.
Will

United States

#22 Aug 4, 2006
...so, Caren of Westmont, IL, you think that Landis' breakaway was nothing more than just the result of brilliant strategy--but how do you account for the mammoth spike in Landis' testosterone as well as the apparent fact that some of it is synthetic, and not from his "own organism"? How can the samples have been doctored or the testing botched when Landis himself admits the levels are high but insists that this is somehow normal for him? And how can he be the source of all the testosterone if it turns out that some of it is synthetic?
MichaelG

Louisville, KY

#23 Aug 4, 2006
Let's not forget that it was a ratio - it's not that the testosterone level was "out of sight," the epitestosterone had "bottomed out" for whatever reason. In "suspect" ratios, the testosterone almost without exception has increased in relation to the epi. I'm not aware of any science to date that would subscribe to performance enhancement via an increase in the ratio due to a drop in epi.
Scott

Redmond, WA

#24 Aug 4, 2006
I didn't think that Landis had played all his cards-he knew his team wasn't up to defending the yellow jersey. After the first set of mountain stages they let the yellow slip willingly from their hands. He knew he was a better timetrialer and only had to keep the climbers that were GC material in check. One bad day on the last climb he bonked-it happens. The next day he was forced to go all out-maximum effort,no bluffing or tactics,just balls to the wall rage riding. Can that kind of once in a lifetime ride spike your hormones? I hope so,but don't hold out any beleif that it produces synthetic substances. We'll know soon enough about that.
Raymond France

Montpellier, France

#25 Aug 5, 2006
The B test results have been released. Landis and any other rider using dope should be banned for life. This would clean up the sport! No weak excuses, no second chances. Nobody involed in sport should be proud of winning by cheating. This only lowers sport to the level of politics
Wayne

United States

#26 Aug 5, 2006
MichaelG wrote:
Let's not forget that it was a ratio - it's not that the testosterone level was "out of sight," the epitestosterone had "bottomed out" for whatever reason. In "suspect" ratios, the testosterone almost without exception has increased in relation to the epi. I'm not aware of any science to date that would subscribe to performance enhancement via an increase in the ratio due to a drop in epi.
Do you have the official findings for the individual T and E numbers? A low E would certainly explain an abnormally high T/E ratio.......

Also......what do you make of the fact that the Olympics dropped T/E testing years ago because of flaky results..such as 100..200:1.??

---Salem Oregon---
Gris

Aarhus, Denmark

#27 Aug 5, 2006
Testing methods are improving ...
Landis´ A-sample also showed a sustance to cover up for testoone-use.
How much evidence do you need?
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have the official findings for the individual T and E numbers? A low E would certainly explain an abnormally high T/E ratio.......
Also......what do you make of the fact that the Olympics dropped T/E testing years ago because of flaky results..such as 100..200:1.??
---Salem Oregon---
Will

United States

#28 Aug 5, 2006
MichaelG wrote:
Let's not forget that it was a ratio - it's not that the testosterone level was "out of sight," the epitestosterone had "bottomed out" for whatever reason. In "suspect" ratios, the testosterone almost without exception has increased in relation to the epi. I'm not aware of any science to date that would subscribe to performance enhancement via an increase in the ratio due to a drop in epi.
MORE BLOWING SMOKE BY THE LANDISTAS...

TWO POINTS: 1) Of course the T/E is a ratio--which means that I doesn't claim to tell you how much of a TOTAL VOLUME of either one substance is present, it can only tell the PROPORTION of one substance to the other. A RATIO IS A FRACTION, such as 1/2 or 3/8 or 11/1, but these numbers are not necessarily connected to specific UNITS OF VOLUME--a ratio of 1/2 could equally be 1 gram to 2 grams or it could be 1 gallon to 2 gallons--BOTH HAVE A 1/2 RATIO BUT CLEARLY REPRESENT DIFFENT TOTAL VOLUMES.

Point 1 is that the Landistas are using the confusion over this subtlety to try to suggest that Landis' 11 testosterone level is "within normal limits" and it's somehow the 1 epi level that is "inexplicably low", BUT SINCE IT'S A RATIO YOU CAN'T VIEW ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER SINCE THEY ARE NOT TIED TO SPECIFIC TOTAL VOLUMES AND THE NUMBERS ONLY HAVE MEANING WHEN CONSIDERED IN RELATIONSHIP TO EACH OTHER.

2) Epi is a known MASKING AGENT which dopers will take in addition to testosterone to doctor the ratio and confound the T/E test--in my opinion, Landis' epi level is probably low because Landis and/or his handlers failed to add the proper amount of epi to cover the testosterone so that the total ratio would fall within normal limits...that solves the "mystery" of the inexplicably low epi level.
Chris

UK

#29 Aug 5, 2006
Raymond France wrote:
The B test results have been released. Landis and any other rider using dope should be banned for life. This would clean up the sport! No weak excuses, no second chances. Nobody involed in sport should be proud of winning by cheating. This only lowers sport to the level of politics
At last the voice of reason
mag_usa

Riverhead, NY

#30 Aug 5, 2006
Chris wrote:
<quoted text>
At last the voice of reason
i thibnk the voice of reason will be deliberating this for a few weeks and then render a verdict... that's someone else's voice you're hearing...
Will

United States

#31 Aug 5, 2006
mag_usa wrote:
<quoted text>
i thibnk the voice of reason will be deliberating this for a few weeks and then render a verdict... that's someone else's voice you're hearing...
...at least he's not listening to your voice...
Stationary biker

Owings Mills, MD

#32 Aug 5, 2006
It's conclusive now that there was synthetic tetosterone in Landis' sample. There are now 3 possibilities: 1. The sample was tainted (doubtful). 2. Landis cheated. 3. Someone slipped him a dose in his beer.

I'd like not to believe that he cheated. Is he so stupid not to realize that he would be tested and found out? I doubt it. Nothing to lose? Possibly...

He did go out drinking the night before. Isn't it possible that someone sabatoged his drink?

In any case, it's doubtful that a single dose of T would significantly effect his performace.
Will

United States

#33 Aug 5, 2006
Stationary biker wrote:
It's conclusive now that there was synthetic tetosterone in Landis' sample. There are now 3 possibilities: 1. The sample was tainted (doubtful). 2. Landis cheated. 3. Someone slipped him a dose in his beer.
I'd like not to believe that he cheated. Is he so stupid not to realize that he would be tested and found out? I doubt it. Nothing to lose? Possibly...
He did go out drinking the night before. Isn't it possible that someone sabatoged his drink?
In any case, it's doubtful that a single dose of T would significantly effect his performace.
The sabotage theory doesn't wash, because Landis was already losing after bonking at stage 16--it makes more sense that a saboteur would give Landis something to make him bonk again, NOT something to enable a miraculous comeback on the hopes that he'd win & then have the high level detected upon testing; that scenario is too convoluted.
mag_usa

Riverhead, NY

#34 Aug 5, 2006
Will wrote:
<quoted text>
...at least he's not listening to your voice...
and what's the matter with my voice? i haven't spouted on about "let's hang 'em high" or "leave the poor dear be"...

oh, i get it.... i'm not polarized enough for you... cool.
Chris

UK

#35 Aug 5, 2006
mag_usa wrote:
<quoted text>
and what's the matter with my voice? i haven't spouted on about "let's hang 'em high" or "leave the poor dear be"...
oh, i get it.... i'm not polarized enough for you... cool.
I think you should try and read my comments again, I have never said "hang 'em high". nor have I written "leave the poor dear be"
Look try to understand. Somehow SYNTHETIC testosterone was in his body. I, of course have no idea who did it BUT I believe there is just a chance that Floyd does know! This seems like Ben Johnson over again, he "Didn't do it" either.
Trt to remember those like Tommy Simpson who died trying to be "The best" These riders need protecting from themselves
Elephant

United States

#36 Aug 5, 2006
Landis was a VOLUNTARY participant in the Tour de France event; HE KNEW GOING INTO THAT EVENT the rule was that ALL PARTICIPANTS were subject to urine drug testing and that ANY PARTICIPANT whose urine T/E ratios exceeded a 4 to 1 threshhold ratio FACED DISQUALIFICATION; etc...
Elephant

United States

#37 Aug 5, 2006
You know, I think this is the best point I've read. Landis knew the rules of the competition, he voluntarily entered, and is now faced with abiding by those rules - like I am sure HE would expect any other cyclist in the tour to do under the same circumstances,(and just like Ulrich, Basso and Mancebo had to). At least Floyd got to ride.
asu_gam

Stanford, CA

#38 Aug 5, 2006
Stationary biker wrote:
He did go out drinking the night before. Isn't it possible that someone sabatoged his drink?
Wrong theory! Who will sabotage against a 11th competitor, with a degenerative hip and little chance to win? Unless a time travler...Wow!
mag_usa

Riverhead, NY

#39 Aug 5, 2006
Chris wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you should try and read my comments again, I have never said "hang 'em high". nor have I written "leave the poor dear be"

Trt to remember those like Tommy Simpson who died trying to be "The best" These riders need protecting from themselves
that comment was directed at another, you'll get your shot later...

protection from themselves? please. these are adults at the peak of their game. they shouldn't need nursemaids on top of the soigneurs, doctors, mechanics, masseuse, cooks, handlers, press agents, DS, etc.

they make choices. let them live with them. that's a weak one, you must admit.
California

AOL

#40 Aug 5, 2006
I was reviewing my tapes of the Tour de France this year and remembering how exciting it was for Floyd to go out alone, and for all of the other teams to fail utterly to bring his time down. He even gained time on everyone else when he was going downhill! He gained 1 minute on everyone in the descent from the final peak when he got back into contention. Everyone was saying that this was an extraordinary sporting achievement.

I am troubled by all of the assumptions that the detected drug could have resulted in this kind of performance. I am further troubled by the fact that there is little recognition that the drug testing that is in place has actually had an effect on the willingness of the top people in the sport to take drugs.

I am further troubled by the scientists being so sure that they know the biology of such rare athletic achievements. The Tour de France is a rather different event from Olympic events. It has a drama and a continuing level of effort that can easily be affecting biology. I am not aware of the ICU studying the biology of the Tour de France in a questioning manner. I have seen a much more accusative approach being taken.

At one time that kind of approach may have been better than the alternative, but it is just a matter of time before it is much more appropriate to assume that the athletes are clean and that the testing procedures in place are preventing cheating, and then continually advance the science not just to detect new abuses, but also to understand when the tests are flawed.

The leaks to the press from the laboratory, and other procedural flaws do not increase my confidence in the procedures of this laboratory.

I stand behind the desire to have the sport of cycling outlaw drug cheats, but it is time to realize that there are challenges to make procedures to find cheating that do not take away the trophies from the champions mistakenly. This is why many are thinking that an innocent until proven guilty approach is appropriate. This is the protection against procedures and bureaucracy run amok.

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