4 firms hired to plan levee project

[Krissy]

And we too pay Fed. Tax Dollars. besides raise levee money specifically for our levee.

[Taxpayer]

DupoFan2
What work will need to be done to our levees that will cost millions of dollars.

[www_leveewaste_c om]

DupoFan2, I gave you my sources about Wood River. I trust them more than your memory. Your memory believes that the Missouri and Mississippi converge north of Alton.

Also, you make my point for me. The sandbagging and other work you had to do to prevent problems from underseepeage shows that the levees need to be fixed. You have been saying for a long time that the only problem is changes to the certification criteria. Those changes are decisions that the levees should withstand floods without sandbagging and that under-seepage should be corrected by the pumps, not thousands of sandbags around huge sandboils.

We're not talking about upgrading the levees. We're talking about getting the levees to do what they were designed to do. DupoFan2 wants to confuse everybody. If the federal government demands upgrades the federal government should pay for them, DupoFan2 says. However, that's not what's going on here. The federal government is saying that the property protected by the levees is in danger due to under-seepage and inadequate strength of the levees. It pins the blame for that on the local levee districts.

Finally, DupoFan2, I'm not interested in discussing the Bush administration or Katrina. I probably agree with you on those items. My whole point has and is that I don't think federal money should be used for a local project like this. The reason I am pointing all all your faults is you are using poor logic, flawed memories, and cloudy thinking to convince me that my taxmoney should be used to protect your property. When you present incorrect facts, I'll point it out. Just like you have done to me.

Krissy, you make a very conservative point, that your tax dollars should be used for your benefit. It's similar to what I have been saying for some time. What many people on this thread have been saying is that my tax dollars should be used for their benefit. And if somebody wants to say that they are fully entitled to the money they send to Washington, I would ask if they really mean that because right now the average community is getting back about 115% of what they send to Washington. The reason that is happennig is because of the debts we are piling up. That cannot conintue forever.

[Country Boy]

HA HA HA Leveewaste you have got to be the biggest moron that has ever walked the earth. Have you ever seen a levee? It doesn't matter what shape your levee is in,when the water gets to the top on one side and the other side is dry ,the water is going to seep out on the dry side. It's called pressure stupid. Do you get it ,PRESSURE! Thats the whole purpose of the releif wells stupid. Water comes out on dry side,pumps pump it back over.WOW,do I need to get my crayons out and draw a better picture for you.HUH! Besides,like Dupo Fan 2 says,the levees did their job in 1993,they never broke,came over the top. I know this for a fact,I was there. Where were you at? At home whining about your money? I think alot of people would agree with me,unless you have been here and physically walked and inspected the levees,shut the hell up. I've offered to pay for your whole trip here once to take a tour of the levee's and see what really goes on, but your to big of a coward to show your face around here. Keep whining about your money,you will never get no where in life.

[DupoFan2]

The Missouri River and the Mississippi River do merge north of Alton. The Wood River system did not overtop. These are the facts. No clouding here. So much for your logical sources. You are dead wrong on both assumptions. That says it all. It only proves that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Check the map, look where the convergence is and look where Alton is. Then look at the Wood River Levee system and see what it protects. If it would have overtopped, it would have been big news. I'm not clouding anything. You are just that wrong. So much for your so called logic.

[easy now]

Bravo dupofan. Levvewaste is obviously has not passed 4th grade. I gave him a pass on the difference between convergence and confluence before. But then he brings it back up as his prima facie argument wrapped in a persona attack on you.

Levee_waste. You are at the point where most people would put down the shovel.

[www_leveewaste_c om]

Country Boy, thank you for proving my point as well. Why did the levees need your attention in 1993? Because they are flawed; they need fixing. Under-seepage is expected, but the pumps are supposed to take care of that. When the pumps cannot keep up, sand boils develop. That's what happened, and it would have been worse without the thousands of volunteers up and down the river. The need for volunteers and sandbage is what encouraged the Corps of Engineers to determine that the levees are not guaranteed to protect the property behind them.

DupoFan2 and Easy Now, I have looked at the map so many times and driven that bridge going to Alton before. Perhaps I don't understand confluence, convergence or merging. I know that when I cross that bridge going east, just before I stop south of downtown Alton, the Jones Confluence point is to my right. That seems south to me.

This conversation started with me saying don't use federal money for a local project. You said, it's a federal project because the feds changed the criteria and the levees are fine. The feds changed the criteria because the levees are not fine. They've been neglected. For floods, the community is examplary in its spirit. For maintenance and responsibility, the levee boards are deficient.

You haven't convinced me. The is a local project that should have never gotten this bad. The levee boards should have done their jobs.

[DupoFan2]

When the pumps can't keep up, sand boils develop...again..how dumb. Pumps have nothing to do with sand boils. Again leveewaste, you show your ignorance. You don't understand confluence. Thats obvious. You can't see it from the bridge at Alton. It's 5 miles upstream. What the hell is the Jones confluence?. Thats just wierd. The volunteers walked the levees for security. They also helped sandbag when needed. Sandbagging efforts where mostly needed to dam areas to hold water over small boils. None were needed to actually hold the river. Again leveewaste..your wrong. The levee boards are not deficient, your logic and reasoning is. You were the one to divert from your general disagreement with the funding, and start criticising our maintenance. You haven't a clue. Just stick with your general resistance to the funding. When you try to get technical..you rerally show lack of intelligence on this subject. It's waaayyy over your head.

[www_leveewaste_c om]

Just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. DupoFan2 and Easy Now, you say that the Missouri and Mississippi rivers meet, merge, join, and come together north of Alton. Is that what you are saying?

DupoFan2, I think your life is so consumed by the levees that you cannot see the forest for the trees. So, please tell me how a sand boil develops. In the meantime I will search for my source that says they are related to under-seepage. I'm sure you don't need a source because you know everything and believe that anybody with a different opinion is stupid.

So, please, answer the question above and tell me how sanboils develop.

[Country Boy]

Leveewaste,your stupidity shines again. So you say that the pumps are suppose to control the sand boils? WRONG,WRONG,WRONG. Just another false statement by the village idiot. You actually want to contain a boil,not speed it up by pumping the water away. Sand boils have nothing to do with how well the levee has been maintained in the past. All the pumps are suppose to do is pump the underseepage back across the levee,not keep the dry side bone dry. Didn't you already agree that underseepage is expected though in any levee? I think you did. So go back to your comic books and do some more research,I'm sure your response will be an intelligent one. How come you won't take me up on my all expense paid offer? Keep up the good work Dupo Fan 2.

[DupoFan2]

Water moves under a levee during a flood. It will seek it's own level. If it finds the path of least resistence, the flow accelerates carring small soil paticles with it. When it finds a place to surface, it starts to deposit that material in the form of a sand boil. They are common. You can't stop them, you monitor and control them. Thats how they work leveewaste. Larger boils are controlled by ringing them with sandbags, holding water over them using the weight of the water to stop the flow. You don't want to pump the water away. Can you grasp that maybe?. My life is not consumed by the levees. I do have a lot of knowledge based on experience, so I may be consumed by someone like you that knows nothing of levee operations, but rails and criticises those of us that do. As far as the Mississippi and the Missouri rivers 'joining' north of Alton...I don't know how to be more clear. I live here leveewaste. I've taken many trips up the great river road past the 'joining' of those two rivers. It's miles north of Alton. Like I said, your logic is definetely faulty. If you believe that the joining is south of Alton,and that the Wood River Levee overtopped, then there is no longer need for discussion. Your ignorance will not change to factual reality. Keep believing what you read. Those of us that rely on facts will continue to point out your glowing mistakes. If any others here read this stuff,could you please tell leveewaste where the two rivers meet. It's obvious he still doesn't get it. Stick with your protest of funding leveewaste..like I said..levee operations are way over your ability to comprehend.

[easy now]

And that is your problem levee_waste.

You don't have the credentials or experience to argue levee science.

You don't know objective history about transportation hubs.

You are refusing to understand the politics of federal and local interactions over time (hint: the levees and interstates were built after WWII to give lots of returning vets jobs, it was a good idea but not everything that was done in 1945-55 is up to todays engineering standards.)

You don't understand constitutional law or legislative history as it should apply to the nexus of the Illinois, Missouri and Mississippi rivers relative to the other pork in the government.

You are also a (self-proclaimed) american. And you should realize that everyone on this thread is respecting that (otherwise we would not be debating with you). The discussion only bogs down when you get on with the name calling, spell checking, personal attacks and such.

[bidnessman]

when facts and history get in the way, fight by making fun of your opposition in any way you can. It's how some play the game.

[FYI]

here is the answer to where the missouri and Missippi rivers merge. http://www.greatriverroad.com/directions.htm

[easy now]

This will all become clear to me when levee_waste drives the interstates here and notices the elevations relative to the levees he is so sure about being deficient.

Let us know when you get it done levee_waste and what your altimeter read.

[DupoFan2]

Uh-Oh. You are right leveewaste. They do converge south of Alton. I was mistaking the statue of the lady of the rivers as the confluence. That is north of Alton. I will apologise for that one mistake. Thanks FYI. A person can learn something new everyday. What was I thinking?.lol.

[easy now]

DupoFan2 wrote:

Uh-Oh. You are right leveewaste. They do converge south of Alton. I was mistaking the statue of the lady of the rivers as the confluence. That is north of Alton. I will apologise for that one mistake. Thanks FYI. A person can learn something new everyday. What was I thinking?.lol.

The convergence is the linear slope correlation factor (less than 1 delta) in its pre-earthquake, pre-levee configuration.

In light of this recent evidence I am also not sure if the founding fathers wrote the interstate commerce clause correctly. Lets let levee waste take a huge triumph here!(after he gives some elevations from his victory lap)

Levee_waste, we really do need those readings, If you don't have a GPS I'll run stickman.

[www_leveewaste_c om]

I have held off to do more research and confirm what I have read several time. Pumps have a whole lot to do with under-seepage. I understand that they do not control a sand boil once the sand boils erupt. I never claimed that. The pumps work to eliminate the underseepage that gathers on the dry side of the levee, preventing sand boils from ever starting.

Easy Now, it was interesting to see how you backed DupoFan2 when he mistakenly placed Alton in relation to the confluence of the two rivers. That helps make my point about personal bias on discussions such as this. You also keep attacking me for name calling and belittling others. I have not done those things. You have tirelessly worked to confuse the issue here and often have ridiculed me for trying to do some good. That's disappointing.

There's a point to be made from the mistake on where Alton is in relation to the rivers. People's memories are not perfect. I have repeatedly given my sources for the information I have presented. Yet, nobody opposing my opinion has done that. Their opinion come from the mindset "I'm smarter than you. I have experience."

When you step back and approach this situation objectively like I have, you don't get so mad about being wrong about a fact or two. I don't have a lifetime of work wrapped into these levees and can see their faults, faults that should have been fixed with local money. The federal government did not cause the problems with the levees, and should not pay for the repairs.

[easy now]

And that is the ruburick you are running. I encourage you to watch a discovery channel program about the waste of america.

I parlanced the exercise of understanding why the interstate commerce clause was put in place. And then you claim ignorance/spell check about the Illinois river. When the locals get scientific you react with personal attacks about who happenes to own commercial property.

Speaking of your personal view from the high ground, Can I meet you to take elevations? What I can offer in return is a view the confluence of the Illinois, Missouri and Mississippi rivers.

If not, you can buy a GPS for yourself and take your own measurements? post it here for free! I'll even sport the fee for the ride up to the top of the arch.

In the meantime, I'll just get a good night sleep.

[DupoFan2]

You are referring to relief wells leveewaste, not pumps. There is a difference between pumps and relief wells. Relief wells do relieve the pressure but they do not prevent all sand boils. The relief wells on our system are functioning but are outdated. Like I've said before, there isn't much you can to to maintain them. The C.O.E. estimates we need an addition 220 according to their preliminary estimates. This means that they designed the levee deficient in the number of relief wells that they originally placed. Should their mistake be our responsibility?. They cost about 45,000 dollars each.

It wasn't my memmory that failed, just the mistaken assumption that the Shrine of the Lady of the Rivers was at the confluence. Besides, it has nothing to do with the subject of levee repairs. If you feel that the problems with the levees should be fixed with local dollars..so be it. I just choose to disagree.