Vatican declares cure a miracle

[halemalu]

there is a picture of father damien in my room. i found an old frame for it with rounded glass. his eyes have the look of eternal love, so kind and caring. stories like the teacher's healing must strengthen the faith of many people. on the other end, the unbelievers must be really at odds when they read them. faith in our Lord can take many routes and every believer will have a different story about how he came to believe. i have my own and i treasure the experience because i know where i am going when i pass away.

[Kit1734]

Halemalu, What you have written has been well thought out. Christianity remains one of the largest religious groups, second only to Islam, in the world. What you have stated is true. Look at it this way. We are presently in the second millenium and the Evil One has been given the opportunity to see what he can do to keep as many away from God. There will be the battle between good and evil and good will prevail at the end.

halemalu wrote:

i would like to see the statistics of the population in a Christian country (upon which our country is founded, how many people were believers/church goers 25 or 50 years ago in comparison to now, and it's general state of morality. from what i can see there is less faith and less morality now, and with each generation the level of fornication, violence and unethical behavior increases while legalistic "rights" are being used to do alot of this stuff to one another. i don't know if i explained this right.
hubby says: "no God, no peace."

[John von dem Beck]

must have been saintly to have spent so many yrs w/lepers

[halemalu]

mother marianne joined father damien down there just before his death. this in itself was a miracel and it visibly comforted him to have someone like her take over his mission, ther was such a peace in his face when a photo was taken with him and the nuns by his side, shortly before he passed. mother marianne spent 30 years in kalaupapa and was over 80 when she died. so far one miracle has been attriguted to her and she has received the first step to sainthood.

[Lork]

halemalu wrote:

everything in nature is so wonderfully made. it had to be by design. how can anyone believe that this was an accident? and why do archeologists find all sorts of proof which the Bible had written about some 4000 years ago and nobody knew if it really existed? i think it is easier to believe in God than not to.

I think there is some valid historical value to the jewish/christian/muslim bible; I just don't find any metaphysical value. The Rig Veda, Bagavad Gida, ancient Chinese texts, etc. also have similar touchpoints in history and reality, i.e. recognizing floods/ice ages, etc. So if anything, that's a decent argument for the Abrahamic tradition not having a lock on an ancient historical narrative.

That being said, if we're talking about infinite space and time, then very, very small chances become more meaningful. Can a tornado blow through a junkyard and assemble a 747...probably not, but we're talking about a cosmic scale. The junkyard is infinitely wide and has existed for all time...that's a lot of opportunity.

And I do agree with your final statement, yes, it is easier to believe in a creation story and I mean no disrespect saying that. And by that I don't mean that all explanations need to be complicated or complex, since the goal is to reduce observations to as simple and elegant a statement as possible (like E=mc2). But, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And so I reiterate my previous point that reason and faith exist on different planes.

I also admire the humility of science, in this case, particularly since it is so open to change and debate. Evolution is a theory, the strongest one developed so far to describe existence that is based on empirical evidence. The certainty that religious explanations provide on cosmology provide a degree of comfort, but I am troubled by the absolute certainty of it and the lack of an opportunity to question it.

[Lork]

Kit1734 wrote:

Halemalu, What you have written has been well thought out. Christianity remains one of the largest religious groups, second only to Islam, in the world. What you have stated is true. Look at it this way. We are presently in the second millenium and the Evil One has been given the opportunity to see what he can do to keep as many away from God. There will be the battle between good and evil and good will prevail at the end. <quoted text>

I would posit that there has never been a point in time where christians have enjoyed being the dominant religion than now. I doubt it ever reached the 30-ish percent it is now, especially since it was limited to Europe and North Africa for most of its 2000 year existence, so if anything, I'd imagine things are going well from a prophecy perspective.

[halemalu]

clarification comes to those who take the time to search, sooner or later. i was raised in germany by agnostic parents and i refused to believe in anything supernatural such as ghosts or any kind of religious truth. but i kept searching and found the truth.
i reject the fighting by christians over evolution since it has been proven beyond a doubt that evolution exists. there is only one thing: humans were created. animals were created and then evolved from major species into all the many sub-species as well as from the ocean to land and air. although one can make the joke that we came from apes and slowly regress to acting like apes. interesting subject, lork, and today is such a dull sunless day where we live, after 3 cups of strong coffee i am still not motivated to get my work done...
love, peace, kumba-jah...

[Count Your Blessings]

I do not think it is possible to believe in both creation and evolution. I think that what you are thinking about is more like adaptation and not evolution. We have all been created in the image and likeness of God.
Also, the difference between religion and christianity is that religion is man kind reaching out to God and christianity is God reaching man kind.
Aloha Ke Akua!

[Lork]

Count Your Blessings wrote:

I do not think it is possible to believe in both creation and evolution. I think that what you are thinking about is more like adaptation and not evolution. We have all been created in the image and likeness of God.
Also, the difference between religion and christianity is that religion is man kind reaching out to God and christianity is God reaching man kind.
Aloha Ke Akua!

Yeah, the christian bible as metaphor/guidebook vs. a literal how-to manual is quite the raging debate. I am generally moderate in most things, seeing value and potential in many things, but I often wonder if this moderation can be applied to religious beliefs: should you be all in or all out with no shades of gray in between. I don't have a firm opinion yet, but I think about it now and again.

For myself, I used to be religious (pre-teen) then agnostic (teens) and then, after reading Ayn Rand like so many college kids do, threw my lot in with atheism/non-deism/irreligiousi ty...secular humanism to use the modern buzz word.

If you're interested in reading contrary opinion, I'd recommend the book I'm reading right now called the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, who makes compelling arguments on the evolution/creation debate. Religious folks I've spoken to who have read it found it thought-provoking, albeit utterly unsuccessful in changing their faith, and an interesting read. What is very peculiar is that it generated criticism from even the atheist/agnostic sector.

This is the same guy who tried to take on the 747 gambit I mentioned in an earlier post in his book, The Blind Watchmaker, but I haven't read that one. The Wiki article on it is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Boeing_...

[Cutchase64]

halemalu wrote:

clarification comes to those who take the time to search, sooner or later. i was raised in germany by agnostic parents and i refused to believe in anything supernatural such as ghosts or any kind of religious truth. but i kept searching and found the truth.
i reject the fighting by christians over evolution since it has been proven beyond a doubt that evolution exists. there is only one thing: humans were created. animals were created and then evolved from major species into all the many sub-species as well as from the ocean to land and air. although one can make the joke that we came from apes and slowly regress to acting like apes. interesting subject, lork, and today is such a dull sunless day where we live, after 3 cups of strong coffee i am still not motivated to get my work done...
love, peace, kumba-jah...

"Consider the Bonobo!"

On the subject of regressing towards ape-ville:
A great optimistic read-"Our Inner Ape"
Frans DeWaal

Excerpt from interview:



92Y Blog
Thursday, August 25, 2005
Talking Primates with Dr. Frans de Waal

Dr. Frans de WaalWe were recently lucky enough to conduct an interview with world-renowned primatologist Dr. Frans de Waal, author of such books as Chimpanzee Politics: Power and Sex Among Apes, Peacemaking Among Primates and Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape.

His new book, Our Inner Ape, looks at human behavior through the eyes of a primatologist, using the behavior of chimps and bonobos as metaphors for how we act. Is there both a chimpanzee and bonobo inside us?

De Waal will be speaking here at the 92nd Street Y on the evening of Monday, October 10, in what promises to be an engaging and candid lecture. Tickets are going fast.

After the jump, Dr. de Waal on apes who rescue injured birds, capuchin monkeys who strike when offered unfair pay, the sex lives of bonobos and why humans are “the most bipolar ape.”

Our Inner Ape examines stereotypes of “animalistic” and “humane” behavior among people, and compares those stereotypes to similar behavior seen among chimpanzees and bonobos. What do you think is the most important lesson that the behavior of our fellow primates holds for us?

While my adoptive country is in a tizzy about Intelligent Design, I see one glaring design flaw in our species. An obviously aggressive primate has been equipped with a brain large enough to develop the ghastliest weapons. We are related to chimpanzees, who no doubt would use these weapons if they had them. They are violent and territorial, like we are. But we’re equally close to bonobos, the make-love-not-war cousins of the chimpanzee, which are excellent at resolving tensions and far more peaceful.

The main message from my book is that we should look at both of these close relatives, and consider that human nature is not all bad, nasty and selfish. It includes lots of positive tendencies. We are endowed with ways to hold aggression in check and to empathize, even with [our] enemies. These tendencies, too, are part of our evolutionary background

[Damien]

WOW!!!

[halemalu]

ha! call me "Bonobo" then. or "hippie chick".