Debate grows over Texas polygamist case

“There was certainly evidence introduced presenting that.”

In a debate that is likely to linger for years, lawyers are arguing whether the state of Texas went too far in removing all children , down to infants, from a polygamist retreat in West Texas. via KVUE.com

[Dyann PACA West- CA]

There is no basis for debate.

This is not about religion. This is about children who are being sexually abused.

God gave us a great gift when he gave us our constitution. Our country is unique among governments, in that, our freedoms are given to us by "our Creator".

The laws that have been passed regarding legal age of consent, child abuse, indentured servitude, and other such laws, were passed because of offences against in the past. They are there not to deprive anyone of freedom, but to insure the protection of those freedoms, for the most innocent and vulnerable of our society.

Charlatans and snake oil salesmen have tried to hide behind the shield of our Constitution for generations. Sometimes they have succeeded.

People have a right to be as stupid as they want to be. Adults have a right to follow any religion, belief, or doctrine, no matter how far fetched it may be. Their stupidity is protected to an extent. It does not entitle them,(even if they have a "religious belief" that it is the right thing to do), to subject their children to abuse.

God forbid, that any child's right, to reach a mature age, without being forced to have their innocence ripped away by some old man, would be taken from them. This is a crime that reaches the very depths of depravity. It wars against the natural affection and decency that the Creator instilled in the hearts and souls of man.

The problem is, they are helpless to help themselves! This is why the government MUST step in!

If the Puritans were around today, they would not be allowed to have the public floggings, or dunking.

You cannot stone someone to death, even if your "religion" says you can. Just as the Constitution protects us from having our freedom of religion infringed upon, it protects the unwilling, and the innocent, from having a religion take away their rights.

Every person in America, including a child, is given the same equal right, to Life, to Liberty, and to Pursue Happiness, according to the dictates of their own heart.

Children are protected by Law. Law breakers need to be brought to justice. Anyone who thinks they are above the law, need to be taught that they are not.

[Dyann PACA West- CA]

There is no basis for debate.

And for those professing a belif that the Bible is God's Word and who take issue with the Law Of The Land:

Romans 13:1-7 states: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good.

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

That passage makes it abundantly clear. We are to obey the government God places over us.

God created government to establish order, punish evil, and promote justice (Genesis 9:6; 1 Corinthians 14:33; Romans 12:8).

We are to obey the government in everything - paying taxes, obeying rules and laws, showing respect, etc.

If we do not, we are ultimately showing disrespect towards God, for He is the One who placed that government over us. When the Apostle Paul wrote Romans 13:1-7, he was under the government of Rome, during the reign of Nero, perhaps that most evil of all the Roman Emperors.

Paul still recognized that government’s rule over him. How can we do any less?

[anamasuperstar]

polygamists are sick thats all there is to this. yes child abuse. no sixteens year olds ready to married to three times older than them bastards. gross.

[Bob]

As far as I know, God didn't give us our Constitution - we Americans fought the British for it. Otherwise we wouldn't have needed to amend it, for example to ban slavery (which the Bible says is OK!)
The fact is, our Constitution is our most basic protection against the tyranny of the majority. One of those rights we and our fathers fought for is the right to due process (see Amendment 14.)
The fact is that there were no legal due process hearings in this case. Some, almost half, the families in YFZ ranch were NOT polygamous. They were normal 1-couple plus children households. Yet because SOME of the members of this religious group permitted polygamy, ALL the children were removed from their homes and parents.
I'm not LDS - but I know injustice when I see it. If the Texas Child Protective Services can do this to a cult who have different beliefs, what is stopping them from doing this against Hasidic Jews - or Amish- or home-schoolers - or any other group which is slightly different from the majority?
The Constitution, that's what. I don't condone marrying off children, but if you read your Bible you will find that arranged child marriages were common throughout the Old Testament - does that mean God disapproved of them? The FLDS Mormons happen to be a good example of what happens when you try to use the Bible as a legal system and apply it to today's world without critical thought.
Until the children are properly represented by legal independent guardians ad litem in fair adversarial hearings, with opportunity for the parents to be represented as well, this is NOT following the law of the land

[Robin]

Anybody with an IQ larger than their shoe size deplores the purported FLDS practices of forcing underage girls to "marry" and exiling teenage boys from their communities. But, when I see images of tanks with SWAT teams rolling on to private property I have visions of the Waco, Texas inferno and of 6 year old Elián González being taken by gunpoint back to Cuba. Both of these debacles that took place under the Clinton/Reno regime and reminded me of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and Red China.

If the authorities were so convinced that men were raping underage girls then they should have rounded up the men under suspicion of pedophilia and rape and left the women and children in their homes while things were investigated.

Lastly, I believe that inciting violence, murder and mayhem are also illegal in the USA, so why aren’t the Feds sending SWAT teams and tanks into Islamist mosques where young and old alike are being brainwashed to hate and kill all non-Muslim infidels? In fact, Islamists are known to marry off their daughters as young as eight with the "promise" not to consummate the marriage until the girl turns fifteen. Again, why aren't we intruding on the Muslims' freedom of religion? Could it be that it is easier to beat up on pacifists like FLDS women dressed in prairie dresses vs. people who strap on bomb belts in the morning?

IS THE NEXT STOP...the Amish community?

[Dyann PACA West- CA]

Bob wrote:

As far as I know, God didn't give us our Constitution - we Americans fought the British for it. Otherwise we wouldn't have needed to amend it, for example to ban slavery (which the Bible says is OK!)
The fact is, our Constitution is our most basic protection against the tyranny of the majority. One of those rights we and our fathers fought for is the right to due process (see Amendment 14.)
The fact is that there were no legal due process hearings in this case. Some, almost half, the families in YFZ ranch were NOT polygamous. They were normal 1-couple plus children households. Yet because SOME of the members of this religious group permitted polygamy, ALL the children were removed from their homes and parents.
I'm not LDS - but I know injustice when I see it. If the Texas Child Protective Services can do this to a cult who have different beliefs, what is stopping them from doing this against Hasidic Jews - or Amish- or home-schoolers - or any other group which is slightly different from the majority?
The Constitution, that's what. I don't condone marrying off children, but if you read your Bible you will find that arranged child marriages were common throughout the Old Testament - does that mean God disapproved of them? The FLDS Mormons happen to be a good example of what happens when you try to use the Bible as a legal system and apply it to today's world without critical thought.
Until the children are properly represented by legal independent guardians ad litem in fair adversarial hearings, with opportunity for the parents to be represented as well, this is NOT following the law of the land

Begin at the beginning and read the Declaration of Independance again in case you forgot it. Or read it for the first time:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident...all men are...
endowed by ** their Creator ** with certain unalienable rights. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men."

[Dyann PACA West- CA]

The fact is, by declaring independence from Great Britain AND the CHURCH of ENGLAND.

(The Declaration of Independence was approved by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776 pre-empting our United States Constitution, adopted on September 17, 1787, by 12 years.

Our Declaration of Independence acknowledges a Creator as the source of the unalienable rights that governments are formed to secure. This acknowledgement was the very foundation of the Constitution of the United States of America.

What are those unalienable rights with which we are endowed? They may be described in many ways, but English jurist Sir William Blackstone wrote in 1766, ".these may be reduced to three principal articles:

the right of personal security (life);
the right of personal liberty; and,
the right of private property.."

America's written Constitution was to protect and secure God-given individual rights to life, liberty, and property. If we ever allow this foundation to be eroded and lose faith that these rights are a gift directly from God to each individual, then we lose the basis of the greatness of the miracle of America.

[Dyann PACA West- CA]

So BOB, though you have no PROOF there is a GOD, you certainly have proof enough that American was founded on the Belief that GOD endowed ALL men with "certain unalienatable rights"..

[Dyann PACA West- CA]

Bob wrote:

The fact is that there were no legal due process hearings in this case.

Another "fact" you like to ignore is:

Due Process is being applied as we speak.
It is not done yet. So far, the COURT (thankfully not you) has seen no problem with DUE PROCESS or they would have dismissed the case by now.

[frank miller]

Considering that their spiritual
FDLS spiritual leader was tried
last year, and convicted of
the very derivative offences
this latest abduction of 437
children are based on { a 15
year young abused "snitch" who has yet to come forward} I am
more convinced now since wit-
nesses from that very Texas
sect location may, or may
not have come forward during
his trial that the timing
during a Presidential election
year whence Sen. John McCain
was considering 2 weeks before
the raid this April'08 very
capable Mormon Mitt Romney as
his running mate is no coin-
cidence but an effort to dis-
courage J.Mc.Cain from choo-
sing a controversial V.P. that
may lose him the electoral
college votes among very
conservative 38 states voters
this November!?
F.M.

[WAKE UP]

IF YOU THINK YOURE CHILDREN ARE SAFE JUST WAIT UNTIL YOURE CHILDREN ARE SNATCHED FOR BELIEVING THE TEACHINGS OF SOME RADICAL NAMED JESUS CHRIST.I DO NOT AGREE WITH POLYGAMY BUT IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN READ THE BIBLE SOLEMAN HAD 700 WIVES AND IT IS PRACTICED IN ISRAEL AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST TO NAME A FEW.DONT BE DUPED BY AN OUT OF CONTROL GOV THAT WOULD RATHER GIVE A GAY COUPLE THE RIGHT TO MARRIAGE THAN RESPECT OUR ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGEON BY CLAIMING CHILD ABUSE.THE CASE WAS OPENED BY A FRAUDULENT CALL IN COLORODO BY ROSITA WILTON AND THE SO CALLED CHILD MOTHERS ARE ALL ADULTS.MEANWHILE OUR LEADERS(CORPORATE AND GOV)WILL BE WORSHIPPING THE DEMON MOLOCH AT BOHEMIAN GROVE IN SONOMA CA THIS SUMMER.SO LET THE ONE OF YOU WITHOUT SIN JUDGE AND CAST THE FIRST STONE WAKE UP WAKE UP

[Thomas]

The state of Texas seized took every last child that people had. The only reason that can explain this is religious persecution. The state of Texas has claimed that 31 of 53 teenage have been pregrant. Of these 26 were in the "disputed minors" category. 26 has already declined to 22. The further this number declines the flimsier the state's case becomes. The most shocking part of this case has been the lack of due process. The state has seized these children based on evidence that is steadly growing flimsier. and now we have these kangaroo proceedings in San Angelo.

[Tex]

So far, the parents seem to be placing their religious beliefs over getting their children returned and do not believe their prophet could be in error with anything he does. How do they achieve that level of obedience and
blindness?

They would rather lose their children than change their lifestyle.