Israeli troops begin Gaza pullout as Hamas declares cease-fire

Full story: Chicago Tribune

Israeli troops began withdrawing from the Gaza Strip on Sunday after Hamas declared a cease-fire, setting the stage for intensified international efforts to arrange a durable truce after a 22-day war against ...
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60,881 - 60,900 of 68,380 Comments Last updated 3 hrs ago
Faith

New Baltimore, MI

#66975 Dec 28, 2012
TRD wrote:
Is it just me or are the posts going through some kind of filter or delay lately? I press the post comment button and the page changes but the post doesn't appear for several minutes.
Oh good...It's not just me....I thought I was on the verge of being..uh..censored.

TRD

“The Real Deal”

Since: Apr 09

Central Florida

#66976 Dec 28, 2012
Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Oh good...It's not just me....I thought I was on the verge of being..uh..censored.
I guess it's unequivocal...Ize broke Topix and now we all have to be censored. SHEESH! One bad apple!

I hate to be the one to say "He told us so" but I'm thanking Al Gore for my green Christmas and future ocean-front property.(and that adorable frog)
Faith

New Baltimore, MI

#66977 Dec 28, 2012
I have always been sympathetic to the Israelis....But now I see the unabashed cruelty being forced upon the poor Palestinians...Maybe Vanessa Redgrave was right...This is just plain inhumane....

"The High Court ruled Tuesday that terrorist security prisoners were not eligible for free university education in Israeli schools. The permission and assistance extended to prisoners convicted of criminal activities that supplies them with free courses and degree programs at Israel's Open University does not apply to prisoners convicted of terror activities, the court ruled.
The ruling came in response to a lawsuit by three terrorist prisoners who claimed they were being discriminated against because prison authorities refused to enroll them in an Open University program and pay their tuition."

Have you ever seen such cruelty?
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66978 Dec 28, 2012
Ize Lost wrote:
<quoted text>
No, No and No. If joining was such a big deal, where are you? You've had more nicks than Screwy Lewey. It is personal, Juan. Obviously they threw my 8K+ posts out the cyber window without looking back. No time outs. No Penalty. Just GONE! So, fcuk em and the camel they rode in on. Your legacy is here with those who remember you, hate you and love you. Pick a hand. Or a leg. There's three of those. There's only one Veeky. Drop the u in words like "color". Don't be a Mensch. You look like a BRIT. And, uh, Smalls is getting ready for the Ball to drop on New Years. His lips have to be chapped by now. Later, Junior.
Nah, I carry the distinction of being the one (non spammer-troll) with most post-deletions & negative-smilie judgies. LOL, look at last 10 pages alone; ya think somebody is unhappy, huh? Love it.

No, not a Brit; merely somone who (started to) learn English NOT in America, duh, so some "sippage" occasionally occurs.

Again, remember Katie Hepburn in African Queen, something about "human nature, Mr. Gittis, is what we must RISE ABOVE".

Ok, Gittis is from Chinatown, but point still stands.

Rise above. Re-register. It's 6th pillar of Islam and only sure way to reach Allah's Afterlife Afterparty.

Come on, home slice, 72 perma-virgin, non-menstruating, non-defecating, non-credit-card-maxing, non-sweating, non-nagging Huri... becon.

"Ize. Iiiiizzzzzeee"
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66979 Dec 28, 2012
TRD wrote:
<quoted text>As they say in Kunming, "Lock and Loll!" (fine, thanks)
As one O' dem registered-hamorphodites we don kindly take to round these here parts, "Quality is NEVER an accident".

So, June 1982.... 92 Su/Mig's VS. 0 F-15/F-16.

Retrospectively...

Who ya got!

Remember, it is said that "quality is ALWAYS an accident". Although, I wonder by whom.
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66980 Dec 28, 2012
voice of peace wrote:
…you didn’t want it once … now you are going to have it twenty times…
My response to the message from Lebanon that was cowardly deleted from the thread… for no reason other than not having the arguments to tackle it…
I liked Amany Al-Sayyed’s article.
I liked it, because when reading in between lines, it becomes obvious that Hamas’ last painful and costly undertaking … was not about liberating Palestine and Palestinians. It was not about pushing back the savage well poisoning rapist Zionist assassins north…
It was all about Hamas… it was all about a ‘victory’… a fake very much needed victory.
It was all about drawing a fake image of a resistance popular movement …. that couldn’t take off and taxied on the runway roaring and burning fuel..
But I’m not surprised at all.
The Palestinian People in the Gaza Strip … can not subsist only on bread. They need also circus. And Hamas felt it was about time to provide the entertainment.
As a spin off, in the best of Arab traditions (ref: the Iom Kippur Museum in Cairo and the Hissballah Museum in southern Beirut) the Hamas leadership persuaded the no-haves on the strip, that their suffering is been rewarded by a definite victory over the Zionist agressors…
Hamas is not telling the crowds that within the first hours of fighting, as occurred in the last engagement with Hissballah … the large range rocketry capacity of fire of Hamas was decimated by precise IAF attacks to the rockets in their borrows…
Hamas is not telling the crowds in the Strip, that their hitting score was low … Only around 4% of the rockets fired across the border hit a target … any target.
Hamas armed resistance, in the axis of time … since its creation, is not doing much of relevance to liberate the lands and the people. Hamas protagonism is bringing only misery to the Strip.
11
You know what's missing? This post.

VOP, I think I speak for everybody when I say "Moar! Maor! MOAR!"

TRD

“The Real Deal”

Since: Apr 09

Central Florida

#66981 Dec 28, 2012
Faith wrote:
I have always been sympathetic to the Israelis....But now I see the unabashed cruelty being forced upon the poor Palestinians...Maybe Vanessa Redgrave was right...This is just plain inhumane....
"The High Court ruled Tuesday that terrorist security prisoners were not eligible for free university education in Israeli schools. The permission and assistance extended to prisoners convicted of criminal activities that supplies them with free courses and degree programs at Israel's Open University does not apply to prisoners convicted of terror activities, the court ruled.
The ruling came in response to a lawsuit by three terrorist prisoners who claimed they were being discriminated against because prison authorities refused to enroll them in an Open University program and pay their tuition."
Have you ever seen such cruelty?
Since I'm not really sure how to spell a sudden intake of breath let me just say OMG! Those Bastards!

TRD

“The Real Deal”

Since: Apr 09

Central Florida

#66982 Dec 28, 2012
Freedom Terrister wrote:
<quoted text>
As one O' dem registered-hamorphodites we don kindly take to round these here parts, "Quality is NEVER an accident".
So, June 1982.... 92 Su/Mig's VS. 0 F-15/F-16.
Retrospectively...
Who ya got!
Remember, it is said that "quality is ALWAYS an accident". Although, I wonder by whom.
I wasn't there in '82 and it was nothing like '73 when I was. However, before I lay a bet I'd like to hear their side of the story...

http://www.redstar.ru/

...cuz the wiki has them claiming an epic, glorious victory over the Juices.

"The Soviets went even further in extolling the SAF's combat virtues: the military newspaper Red Star announced triumphantly that "sixty-seven Israeli aircraft, including modern US-made F-15 and F-16 fighters, were downed" in the fighting"

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/a...
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66983 Dec 28, 2012
TRD wrote:
<quoted text>I wasn't there in '82 and it was nothing like '73 when I was. However, before I lay a bet I'd like to hear their side of the story...
http://www.redstar.ru/
...cuz the wiki has them claiming an epic, glorious victory over the Juices.
"The Soviets went even further in extolling the SAF's combat virtues: the military newspaper Red Star announced triumphantly that "sixty-seven Israeli aircraft, including modern US-made F-15 and F-16 fighters, were downed" in the fighting"
http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/a...
Red Star. But of course. That's why Brezhnev and Andropov just about fired or "retired" the whole joint-chiefs...uh-huh, lulz.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...

Somehow miraculous Israeli 92:0 air-kill ratio + whoppiong 17 Soviet SAM batteries taken out in matter of hours --- remember, Syrian air-defenses were THE most dense outside of Moscow at the time, plus of course ton of Soviet "advisers" basically in charge... got turned into an epic, Orwellian Charlie Sheen "WIN!!!oneOne111?!!! " for the

Then again, compared to the most recent Gaza claims of having sunk the Knesset building in "Al Quds"; remotely hijacked & landed like a dozen Zionist F-16, apaches and Dolphin submarines --- not to mention caought 1000's of collaborators & AIDS poisoners of water-wells...

Red Star, Pravda, ITAR-TASS come off looking like a Walter Cronkite in comparison.
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66984 Dec 28, 2012
Freedom Terrister wrote:
<quoted text>
Red Star. But of course. That's why Brezhnev and Andropov just about fired or "retired" the whole joint-chiefs...uh-huh, lulz.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Somehow miraculous Israeli 92:0 air-kill ratio + whoppiong 17 Soviet SAM batteries taken out in matter of hours --- remember, Syrian air-defenses were THE most dense outside of Moscow at the time, plus of course ton of Soviet "advisers" basically in charge... got turned into an epic, Orwellian Charlie Sheen "WIN!!!oneOne111?!!! " for the
Then again, compared to the most recent Gaza claims of having sunk the Knesset building in "Al Quds"; remotely hijacked & landed like a dozen Zionist F-16, apaches and Dolphin submarines --- not to mention caought 1000's of collaborators & AIDS poisoners of water-wells...
Red Star, Pravda, ITAR-TASS come off looking like a Walter Cronkite in comparison.
"In June 1982, Israeli ground forces pushed into Lebanon in an effort to put an end to cross-border terror attacks. Operation Peace for Galilee, as Israel dubbed it, led to a prolonged conflict with Lebanon and produced mixed overall results.

However, the initial phase of that operation included a spectacular moment when the Israeli Air Force destroyed 19 surface-to-air missile batteries, with no losses, and downed a huge number of enemy aircraft. With real-time intelligence and careful exploitation of adversary weaknesses, the IAF dealt modern air defenses their first major defeat.

So startling was the IAF success in that Bekaa Valley air war 20 years ago this month that it ever since has stood out as a critical turning point in the deadly duel of fighters and SAMs.

The Bekaa Valley success was long in the making. Israel's small but elite air force dominated the Six Day War of June 1967, pulling off one of the most successful surprise attacks of all time. Flying about 3,300 sorties, the IAF smashed the air forces of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The three Arab nations, taken together, lost around 400 aircraft on the ground and in the air. Thereafter, the Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian armies were routed in the Sinai, Golan Heights, and West Bank.

However, the IAF's dominance in the air was successfully challenged in the War of Attrition which officially started in March 1969 and ended in mid-1970. Egypt's campaign to harass Israeli forces in the Sinai was backed by a massive infusion of Soviet weapons, including modern aircraft and missiles. As a result, the IAF was the first air force that had to contend with advanced Soviet-made SAMs.

During these years, IAF raids destroyed some Egyptian SAM batteries, but sporadic action was not enough. Worse, the SAMs were taking a toll on the small Israeli Air Force. One historian of these events, retired RAF Air Vice Marshal Tony Mason, observed, "Squadron attrition exchange ratios had changed from 1-to-40 in the air to 2-to-4 against missiles" during the peak of the War of Attrition. It was only too apparent that the Arab states were shifting from fighters to SAMS for air defense."
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66985 Dec 28, 2012
Clearly, the IAF's freedom to operate in future battles depended on its finding a way to rapidly and systematically take out stationary or mobile SAMs. In Ivry's view, the main lesson of 1973 was simple: "We have to find an answer to the SAM batteries."

Years passed, and Egypt and Israel made peace, but the overall SAM problem did not go away. If anything, it intensified. In April 1981, Syria began to deploy its first SAM brigades to the Bekaa Valley of Lebanon. The move came in response to the IAF's shootdown of two Syrian helicopters which had been participating in attacks on Christian militia--Israel's allies--in southern Lebanon.

One who was studying Syria's move with great interest was Ivry, who had become head of the IAF.

"From our point of view," he said, the movement of SAM brigades into the Bekaa Valley was "crossing the red line" because it threatened Israel's air superiority over its border with Lebanon. SAMs in the Bekaa Valley restricted the IAF's ability to conduct reconnaissance or to provide air cover for ground operations.

However, the clock was ticking on implementing the final phases of the 1978 Camp David Accords and the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty, which called for withdrawal of forces from the Sinai in 1982. The political situation was "very delicate," in Ivry's words. Israel was tempted to carry out an attack on the Bekaa Valley SAM brigades, but the IAF had a bigger challenge in mind: destruction of the Osirak nuclear reactor then under construction in Iraq. On June 7, 1981, in a stunning attack, a strike package of 14 Israeli fighters destroyed the reactor outside Baghdad.

A year later, however, the elimination of the Bekaa Valley SAM sites became an urgent priority. Palestine Liberation Organization forces in southern Lebanon had become part of an escalating cross-border conflict aimed at Israeli settlements. The PLO fired artillery and rockets against Israeli civilian areas in Galilee.

Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon got Prime Minister Menachem Begin's support for an operation in Lebanon to attack the PLO forces there. Operation Peace for Galilee aimed to drive Israeli ground forces into Lebanon to keep Syria at bay, while Lebanese Christian militiamen drove out the PLO. The first week of the operation culminated with the most significant air battle of the 1980s and one of the most important in the history of military airpower.
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66986 Dec 28, 2012
The Hunt Begins

On June 6, Israeli ground forces began an advance into the PLO settlements in Lebanon with the IAF fighters and attack helicopters providing support. Israeli forces moved fast, pushing north to Jazzin, where action stalled. Israeli ground forces needed continued air support, but the pace threatened to put IAF fighters, attack aircraft, and helicopters in range of the Bekaa Valley SAM sites.

Ivry and his headquarters staff at the Tel Aviv command post were watching Syria closely. One major concern was trying to "avoid any war with Syria," said Ivry. The SAM sites were in the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon with others in Syria itself, protecting the Bekaa Valley batteries. Syrian troops and Palestinian guerrillas were crowded into the small operational area along with Israeli helicopters and rescue operations.

http://airbase.ru/alpha/b/bekaa1/eng/img/beka...
Remotely Piloted Vehicles (a Scout is shown here) detected additional SAMs deployed to the valley. This allowed IAF leaders to adjust their strategy. Later, the RPVs smoked out SAM sites for the F-4s to destroy.(Photo courtesy IAF Magazine)

"Sometimes we had more than 100 planes flying in this kind of environment," said Ivry. It was "a real saturation area," about 1,500 square miles of airspace, where command and control was paramount. Ivry ran the central control of the operation himself.

Initial plans called for attacks on 14 SAM sites. Then on Tuesday, June 8, Ivry learned that Israeli Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPVs) had spotted an additional five SA-6s moving from the Golan Heights into the Bekaa Valley.

"They had a very dense belt along the Golan Heights to prevent Israeli penetration" toward Damascus, Ivry explained. "We found this out in the morning," Ivry said, and "it meant quite a lot for us."

The move signaled that Syria had no intention of becoming involved in a major war--or the SAMs would have been positioned to defend the approach to Damascus, instead of going north and reinforcing the Bekaa Valley. The redeployment suggested to Ivry that they could strike the SAM sites without drawing Syria into a wider war and achieve the goal of eliminating the SAM defenses from Lebanon.

Conditions were perfect. Ivry changed plans on the morning of Wednesday, June 9, taking into account the five newly spotted SAM batteries. He planned to launch the attack at noon but had to wait for Israel's Cabinet to approve the raid. The Cabinet's deliberations finished shortly after 10 a.m. and "we got the green light." Ivry by that time had postponed the attack until 2 p.m.

"Before the attack, there were a lot of Syrian patrols on the border," recounted Ivry, but no air combat engagements that morning. The Syrians avoided battle. "We'd shot down quite a lot of Syrian MiGs before," commented Ivry.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66987 Dec 28, 2012
"Free-Fire Zone"

When Israel launched its strike force at 2 p.m., the Syrians ordered their combat air patrols to return to base and land. With their fighters down and safely out of the way, Ivry said, Syrian commanders thought they "were going to have a free-fire zone to shoot anybody who flies."

He added, "They've been so confident that their air defense is so strong that why should they risk any Syrian fighter planes?"

Now, Ivry directed his strike aircraft toward the nest of SAMs. The SAM sites were a combination of SA-2s, SA-3s, and SA-6s. "It was a challenge to attack," said Ivry. Key to the plan was gathering data to exploit weaknesses in the technology of the SAMs and the way they were operated by the Syrians.

Ivry recalled that "the intelligence-gathering effort which we did was an enormous one." Other sources describe how, prior to the war, Israeli drones tested out the radar and communications frequencies of the SAM batteries. In his 1991 book The Samson Option, Seymour M. Hersh writes that clandestine operations in May 1982 produced a wealth of data on SAM frequencies and radar coverage that later proved useful to IAF electronic warfare in the Bekaa Valley.

Attacking the SAMs in daylight relied on command, control, and intelligence to make the strike fast and effective--and standoff missiles to give the Israeli aircrews the first shots. The plan had been well-rehearsed. Aircrews practiced attack runs against dummy SAM sites in Israel's Negev desert for months before the operation. The IAF conducted mock jamming of fighter and ground communications in order to undercut centralized control of the air defense.

"You have to find a way when to jam and when not to jam," explained Ivry. "You can jam it when you need it to assist your fighter planes. And you cannot jam it when you want to get information, when you want to listen."
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66988 Dec 28, 2012
"IAF aircraft also carried electronic countermeasures pods to foil radar tracking.

Ivry needed direct control over the attack to make it a success. The IAF command post in Tel Aviv gave Ivry a real-time command picture of the air battle through various data links. E-2Cs with their airborne surveillance radar downlinked their pictures to the command post.

Remotely Piloted Vehicles provided video. Israel had one squadron of RPVs; this was not enough, in Ivry's view, and it had limited nighttime capability, but the squadron was enough for Ivry to keep at least two RPVs in the air all the time. Israeli RPVs helped provide constant locations of the Syrian SAM batteries.

"We tried to follow them, because some of them had been mobile," said Ivry. He added, that morning "we'd been following them, all of them,[and] this was one of the conditions for that morning, to get all the information. Yes, we knew, no doubt, we knew all of them, where they were located."

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
One at a time, four-ship formations of Israeli fighters flew into the engagement zone. The IAF pilots were able to shoot down as many as two or three out of four Syrian fighters. Here, three IAF F-15s carry out a patrol.(Photo courtesy IAF Magazine)

The IAF also set up two-way voice communications between Ivry and his pilots. This real-time command, control, and intelligence capability, largely new to modern air warfare, delivered what Ivry termed the "real-time intelligence" to the local operators and the strike force.

When the attack was launched, F-15s and F-16s provided interception and air defense capability while F-4 Phantoms took the main role in attacking the SAM batteries. RPVs went in first to get the Syrian SAMs to turn on their radars. Then the F-4s destroyed them with high-speed anti-radiation missiles.

Because the fighters were striking known locations, the attack moved fast, minimizing the exposure of aircraft to the SAMs. The rapid flight time of the missiles also furnished just enough standoff to maximize the F-4s' chances of getting away. Immediately, the SAM batteries were "disrupted one after another," recounted Ivry.

When the shooting was over, the IAF had destroyed all 19 SAM batteries within two hours without losing an airplane.

The IAF had Laser-Guided Bomb capability, but Ivry said, "In this case we didn't use it. It's too slow. But then, after the attacks, after eliminating the SAM battery, you can come over to destroy part of the site" with no risk.

Score: 87-to-Zip"

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66989 Dec 28, 2012
Meanwhile, Syria's fighters found themselves badly out of position when the Israeli attacks on the SAM sites began. "After about 20 minutes, they launched fighter planes to intercept, to try to disturb our attacks on the SAM batteries," Ivry noted.

Helicopters, drones, electronic warfare, strike fighters, and now air combat made up a massive aerial melee.

"You have a kind of concert which you are conducting," recalled Ivry. "It's not only just the fighter planes that are killing MiGs and other ones on SAM batteries. Once you have them in the same area, you have to conduct a concert. You cannot play the drums in the same time as the piano is playing a different concert. And air combat is a different concert than [the attack on] the SAM batteries."

From the command center, Ivry had the E-2C air picture plus F-15s capable of sorting out engagements at shorter range. IAF pilots relied frequently on VHF radio, hoping to preserve their tactical communications and links to the command post.

Ivry's tactic was to vector four-ship formations of Israeli fighters into the engagement zone, one at a time. Each air battle lasted one to two minutes. Ivry did not want to let any more than one four-ship into the battle area. "Never mind if I'm not going to catch all the MiGs" he said; he wanted "to be on the safe side that I'm not going to intercept one of ours."

For the Syrians, the battle was hopeless, tactically and psychologically. Selective airborne communications jamming frazzled the airwaves for the Syrian MiG-21s and MiG-23s and cut them off from ground control.

Ivry described their lack of confidence as the Syrian fighter pilots launched and came up into the fight without any idea of the interception route they would run. When they did try something, the interceptions attempted by the MiG pilots were "not very efficient," in Ivry's opinion.

"So, we catch them slowly, one by one," he remembered.

Listening in the command post, Ivry heard the Israeli fighters shooting down "sometimes two or three out of four" of the Syrians. "And the more they came, the lack of confidence on their side was increased." Psychologically, as Ivry said of the Syrian pilots' state of mind, "you're losing and losing." He went on, "Once you start to lose, you think,'Well, I'm going to be a target, and I'm going to go over there because I've been summoned?'"

The Israeli pilots kept the advantage. "I can only tell you that, within half an hour, we shot down about 26 MiGs," Ivry said. After two hours Ivry called off the SAM attacks. The tally grew so that by noon on Friday, when a cease-fire took effect, IAF pilots had shot down 82 airplanes without losing any in air combat.

Wiping out the Bekaa Valley SAMs cleared the way for the IAF to give full support to the Israeli ground forces. Subsequently, the IAF also scored hits on Syrian tanks using attack helicopters with TOW missiles and fighters with LGBs. "We were attacking a lot of tanks," Ivry said. "We had an operation to prevent an armored division coming from the north, by night."

After Israeli and Syrian tank clashes, the IAF used F-4s and A-4s, with Mk 82 and Mk 83 laser guidance kits attached, to designate and attack tanks by night.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66990 Dec 28, 2012
"Real-Time Targeting

Two weeks later, Ivry got a chance to test out real-time command and control against another small set of SAM batteries. The Syrians moved a new SAM battery into Lebanon. One F-4 Phantom loitering in the area was shot down by the ambush and "attacked by a missile coming from Syria, not from inside Lebanon."

Ivry ordered an immediate strike and now believes they caught three out of the four batteries. The success came because the IAF constantly tracked the SAMs.

"In some ways it was much more a kind of hunting," as Ivry described it. "We had RPVs running after them [the SAM batteries] all the time." The SAM batteries ducked into villages, causing frustration. This left the IAF following them, "waiting to see that we are not going to miss them [the SAM batteries] getting out of the city and to attack them on a place which [was not] very populated."

The RPVs gave a video picture that matched up with a map grid system familiar to the Israeli pilots, who knew the terrain well. With a lot of practice, the system gave Ivry the ability to call each fighter and pass the information within "seconds."

"This was real-time communications," Ivry said. "By voice, I could speak with anyone from my command post. Sometimes I even knew the names" of the pilots in the formation, he added, especially when his son was flying."

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66991 Dec 28, 2012
A Change in Warfare

In contrast with the desperate air battles of October 1973, Israel's 46-hour Bekaa Valley air war set a new standard for orchestrated air operations and proved that even sophisticated mobile SAMs could be dismembered by well-coordinated air attacks.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
The Bekaa Valley War forced Israel's enemies to consider alternative weapons and helped the IAF--whose F-15s still bear the kill markings from this battle--regain its stature within Israel's armed forces.(Photo courtesy IAF Magazine)

"The ability to disrupt the SAM batteries, this kind of achievement, it made a major impact strategically," Ivry noted.

The lopsided scores against both Syrian SAMs and fighters put orchestrated airpower back in the center of modern warfare. Not losing airplanes was "mainly luck, I can tell you," Ivry said later, pointing to the close-packed nature of the air battles. Bekaa Valley underscored the value of electronic warfare and the benefits of coordination and careful planning. Ivry's role in coping with unexpected SAM batteries and altering attack plans in real time showed that success in air warfare rested on skillful execution in the heat of battle as well as prior planning.

For Israel, the Bekaa Valley air war established a strong deterrent against Syria, according to Ivry. It also helped the IAF regain balance within Israel's armed forces.

Yet the Bekaa Valley air war also helped drive Middle East strategy in a new direction. Potential opponents started to look for new weapons, since challenging the IAF in the skies was deemed pointless. Ivry cited conclusions drawn by the Syrian minister of defense, who felt that Israeli airpower and electronic warfare won the day in the Bekaa Valley and the next war would be a "surface-to-surface war and not the surface-to-air war anymore." As Ivry said, "That's when they started to buy the Scuds." He was referring to Syria and Iraq.

In Moscow, the Bekaa Valley operation threw military men into a kind of shock. Top Soviet systems had been trounced. On a visit to Czechoslovakia in 1991, Ivry met a Czech general who had been serving in Moscow in 1982. He told Ivry that the Bekaa Valley air war made the Soviets understand that Western technology was superior to theirs, and in this Czech general's view, the blow to the Bekaa Valley SAMs was part of the cascade of events leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The Bekaa Valley also provided a preview of the technological marvels of the 1991 Persian Gulf War, with the US Air Force's destruction of integrated air defenses, to increasing real-time control by those in charge of fighter operations, to Laser-Guided Bombs hitting tanks in the desert. Used aggressively and skillfully by the IAF, airpower once again had come out on top.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66992 Dec 28, 2012
Yumpin Yimminy wrote:
<quoted text>Ai Ban/ Vot's dat?
Yay.

Kissies & no-blech'sss.

OXOX

[/John Wayne by way of Lipush]

TRD

“The Real Deal”

Since: Apr 09

Central Florida

#66993 Dec 28, 2012
Freedom Terrister wrote:
<quoted text>
Red Star. But of course. That's why Brezhnev and Andropov just about fired or "retired" the whole joint-chiefs...uh-huh, lulz.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/June2002/0602beka...
Somehow miraculous Israeli 92:0 air-kill ratio + whoppiong 17 Soviet SAM batteries taken out in matter of hours --- remember, Syrian air-defenses were THE most dense outside of Moscow at the time, plus of course ton of Soviet "advisers" basically in charge... got turned into an epic, Orwellian Charlie Sheen "WIN!!!oneOne111?!!! " for the
Then again, compared to the most recent Gaza claims of having sunk the Knesset building in "Al Quds"; remotely hijacked & landed like a dozen Zionist F-16, apaches and Dolphin submarines --- not to mention caought 1000's of collaborators & AIDS poisoners of water-wells...
Red Star, Pravda, ITAR-TASS come off looking like a Walter Cronkite in comparison.
Two sides to every story Veekster, theirs is a lot less flattering. We know the truth, though, don't we?

In fairness, it took a second day to get the last couple of SAMs and then roam the skies with impunity. The Soviet advisers did exactly what we would expect under the circumstances vis a vis ground-controlled intercepts but the Israeli forces enjoyed a major qualitative advantage over the Syrian's USSR gear. As well, the SAM umbrella which Israel faced in 1973 was much more effective than the Syrian defenses so I might take issue with how you describe the "Mother of all aerial battles". Luckily, the losses of '73 drove home the need to have a coordinated SEAD scheme which paid (as we so easily saw) a major survival dividend for Israeli pilots.
Freedom Terrister

Chicago, IL

#66994 Dec 28, 2012
TRD wrote:
<quoted text>Two sides to every story Veekster, theirs is a lot less flattering. We know the truth, though, don't we?
In fairness, it took a second day to get the last couple of SAMs and then roam the skies with impunity. The Soviet advisers did exactly what we would expect under the circumstances vis a vis ground-controlled intercepts but the Israeli forces enjoyed a major qualitative advantage over the Syrian's USSR gear. As well, the SAM umbrella which Israel faced in 1973 was much more effective than the Syrian defenses so I might take issue with how you describe the "Mother of all aerial battles". Luckily, the losses of '73 drove home the need to have a coordinated SEAD scheme which paid (as we so easily saw) a major survival dividend for Israeli pilots.
Someone been watching too much Kurosawa and Tarantino, eh?

There is only ONE Truth is: You Ebbyl Juice, I big great Muslim; you gimme moneys and honeys, you HEAR?!!!?!

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