“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#42 Aug 16, 2012
Sorry, posts are too long and... frankly, boring.
You can talk about the 1 in a million kid who makes it big, but for the other 99.999%.. they need a fricking day job.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#43 Aug 16, 2012
RACE wrote:
Sorry, posts are too long and... frankly, boring.
You can talk about the 1 in a million kid who makes it big, but for the other 99.999%.. they need a fricking day job.
But that's the point. This guy doesn't. At least not at the moment. His parents are footing the bill while he takes his shot.

This guy may not make it big, but he's not a loser for taking advantage of the opportunity his parents are giving him. If they say the well has run dry and this career ain't taking off so he needs to get a job and he doesn't, THEN he's a loser. But if the well runs dry and he puts music on the back burner and gets a job, where's the problem?

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#44 Aug 17, 2012
Mister Tonka wrote:
Pearl Jam just celebrated their 20th anniversary last year. Whether they are your cup of tea or not, you cannot deny that they have had a very successful run and a huge following (and are still going). Cameron Crowe made The documentary movie PJ 20 chronicling the early pre-PJ days and how the band formed leading into telling the tale from the last 20 years.
In the movie, Soundgarden lead singer Chris Cornell told a story about how he ws looking for room mate. Someone suggested he call up(future Pearl Jam guistarist) Stone Gossard. Stone turned down the offer as he was living with his parents and content with his living situation. the ead singer of Stone's band ended up romming with Cornell. You guys would have looked at him and considered him a loser. But he looked at it as an opportunity and parlayed that into a 20+ year career as a guitarist and songwriter.
And he's very talented AND generous -- I saw them live (an excellent concert) and he gave the other two guitarists lots of time in the spotlight with lead roles and solos.

My best friend is a PJ nut. Just the other day, she emailed me a screen shot from their fan club page, showing that she's belonged to their fan club for like 13 years now. ;)

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#45 Aug 17, 2012
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But that's the point. This guy doesn't. At least not at the moment. His parents are footing the bill while he takes his shot.
This guy may not make it big, but he's not a loser for taking advantage of the opportunity his parents are giving him. If they say the well has run dry and this career ain't taking off so he needs to get a job and he doesn't, THEN he's a loser. But if the well runs dry and he puts music on the back burner and gets a job, where's the problem?
I agree. And if his parents weren't willing to support him, maybe he would be willing to get a regular job to pay his bills. We can't assume that he WOULDN'T do this, because we really have no evidence to the contrary.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#46 Aug 17, 2012
But what if the well runs dry and he whines and pleads that he is thissss close to hitting it big? And what if he really is and he has to give up his dream, or what if he is lying thru his teeth to avoid acting like an adult?

Too many what if's. He needs to at least have a token job to show some measure of adulthood. No kid in his 20's should be sitting in his bedroom all day strumming on his guitar like a 14yr old.
and as even amby said, those great songs dont get written in a vacuum.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But that's the point. This guy doesn't. At least not at the moment. His parents are footing the bill while he takes his shot.
This guy may not make it big, but he's not a loser for taking advantage of the opportunity his parents are giving him. If they say the well has run dry and this career ain't taking off so he needs to get a job and he doesn't, THEN he's a loser. But if the well runs dry and he puts music on the back burner and gets a job, where's the problem?

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#47 Aug 17, 2012
RACE wrote:
But what if the well runs dry and he whines and pleads that he is thissss close to hitting it big? And what if he really is and he has to give up his dream, or what if he is lying thru his teeth to avoid acting like an adult?
Too many what if's. He needs to at least have a token job to show some measure of adulthood. No kid in his 20's should be sitting in his bedroom all day strumming on his guitar like a 14yr old.
and as even amby said, those great songs dont get written in a vacuum.
<quoted text>
That's where you and I differ. You seem to have some magic number whereby you must have a job or else you're a loser. I see no shame in accepting someone else's generosity.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#48 Aug 17, 2012
And if the well never runs dry? Is it ok to forever accept that generosity?

Are you telling me there is no magic number where you have to concede that a 45 yr old man who has lived his entire life in his parents house and never had a job because he was always working on his "music" must finally be called a loser?
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>That's where you and I differ. You seem to have some magic number whereby you must have a job or else you're a loser. I see no shame in accepting someone else's generosity.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#49 Aug 17, 2012
And this is why young birds are pushed from the nest. There are no free rides, and you need to learn to fly and fend for yourself. Mom and Dad are not your forever free worms ticket.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>That's where you and I differ. You seem to have some magic number whereby you must have a job or else you're a loser. I see no shame in accepting someone else's generosity.

Since: Mar 09

#50 Aug 17, 2012
I started off in Camp Loser but as this thread has progressed, I find myself coming around to Tonka's POV. I don't think I'd want to date someone like this guy from the letter, but is there something inherently wrong with him or the situation? What if his parents can afford to support him til the day they die, leave him a big enough inheritance to support him for the rest of HIS life, and teach him how to manage money? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#51 Aug 17, 2012
And whats wrong with having somebody wipe is ass for him after he craps? If he can afford it, no harm in that is there?

My point is, what about his personal growth? doing nothing with your life just because your born into money still makes you a loser.
j_m_w wrote:
I started off in Camp Loser but as this thread has progressed, I find myself coming around to Tonka's POV. I don't think I'd want to date someone like this guy from the letter, but is there something inherently wrong with him or the situation? What if his parents can afford to support him til the day they die, leave him a big enough inheritance to support him for the rest of HIS life, and teach him how to manage money? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

Since: Mar 09

#52 Aug 17, 2012
RACE wrote:
And whats wrong with having somebody wipe is ass for him after he craps? If he can afford it, no harm in that is there?
My point is, what about his personal growth? doing nothing with your life just because your born into money still makes you a loser.
<quoted text>
I guess I'm saying that while I wouldn't want that in my life, who's he hurting? Could he be a more productive member of society? Of course. But so could I, and just about everyone else I know, technically.

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#53 Aug 17, 2012
The line between young man living at home pursuing his art and loser is not a definite thing.

He does his music thing for awhile and see where that takes him. It could be the big time, it could only be the bar down the street, but I feel he should be able to go for it. He parents seem to agree.

But if it turns out that he only makes it to the bar down the street and can't pay the bills with jsut music, then he needs to get a job. At this juncture is where a loser is made or not.

A loser would insist that his big break is coming any day and if he can just put more energy into his art then he'll hit it big. All the while mooching of his girlfriend and/or parents and refusing to work a day job.

A non-loser will step up and get a day job, maybe even something he doesn't really like because he know it's his responsiblity to help pay the bills. Hopefully he'll make enough to pay for rent at a practice space so he can keep going with his music, and possibly still hit it big or just play for the enjoyment of it.

But there's not set time-line for this, but it should be sorta obvious at a certain time when money from music coming in does not cover money used on music. Depending on how good he is, this could be next year or ten years from now, or never.

No Doubt struggled for 10 years before hitting it big. When I would get frustrated with S and his multitude of bands, I would remember that fact and encourage him to go do his thing.

But as it turns out, the arts not-for-profit will probably be the way he hits it big, if they ever do. And he's sick of schleping his equipment around and wants to spend more time with the kids, so just this week he quit his last band. He knew it was the right time to do that because he falls into the not-loser catagory.

Sorry about the length of the post RACE. I do hope it's not too boring, tho.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#54 Aug 17, 2012
Not a problem, I only read the sentence with my name it it!

Kidding, kidding...
Was long, but not boring because your talking about your personal experience, not some dude in some band you never met.
squishymama wrote:
The line between young man living at home pursuing his art and loser is not a definite thing.
He does his music thing for awhile and see where that takes him. It could be the big time, it could only be the bar down the street, but I feel he should be able to go for it. He parents seem to agree.
But if it turns out that he only makes it to the bar down the street and can't pay the bills with jsut music, then he needs to get a job. At this juncture is where a loser is made or not.
A loser would insist that his big break is coming any day and if he can just put more energy into his art then he'll hit it big. All the while mooching of his girlfriend and/or parents and refusing to work a day job.
A non-loser will step up and get a day job, maybe even something he doesn't really like because he know it's his responsiblity to help pay the bills. Hopefully he'll make enough to pay for rent at a practice space so he can keep going with his music, and possibly still hit it big or just play for the enjoyment of it.
But there's not set time-line for this, but it should be sorta obvious at a certain time when money from music coming in does not cover money used on music. Depending on how good he is, this could be next year or ten years from now, or never.
No Doubt struggled for 10 years before hitting it big. When I would get frustrated with S and his multitude of bands, I would remember that fact and encourage him to go do his thing.
But as it turns out, the arts not-for-profit will probably be the way he hits it big, if they ever do. And he's sick of schleping his equipment around and wants to spend more time with the kids, so just this week he quit his last band. He knew it was the right time to do that because he falls into the not-loser catagory.
Sorry about the length of the post RACE. I do hope it's not too boring, tho.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#55 Aug 17, 2012
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But that's the point. This guy doesn't. At least not at the moment. His parents are footing the bill while he takes his shot.
This guy may not make it big, but he's not a loser for taking advantage of the opportunity his parents are giving him. If they say the well has run dry and this career ain't taking off so he needs to get a job and he doesn't, THEN he's a loser. But if the well runs dry and he puts music on the back burner and gets a job, where's the problem?
He might not BE a loser, but I think some people would think he's a loser.

One of the things a loser is, to me, is someone without backbone and over-dependent upon other people. If he's accepting his parents largess just to live and not contributing, some people might be jealous or think -- attaboy! Me, I think loser! Make your own way.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#56 Aug 17, 2012
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text> Why? Is there some deorective that tells you every relationship should have marriage as the goal and if that's not on your radar, then end it? Dating is supposed to be fun. What happened to dating cause you simply enjoy someone's company or you have fund together?
There are plenty of people whose company I enjoy and who I have fun with … I call them friends. I don’t want to date a “friend.” Someone who I am dating should be more than just a FWB. To me every day spent dating someone who I see absolutely no future with is just a wasted day that I could be spending with someone who I will have a future with or maybe because I’m in a relationship and am not on the prowl I miss out on a woman who I would have a future with.

I also don’t need a woman in my life to have fun. So, if one is going to be in my life, I want what I want and that’s not someone I see absolutely no future with. It’s just a big waste of time to me.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text> Why? She's a big girl. As long as you are straight with her that you have no aspirations to get married, at least not any time soon, wy make the decision for her? If you are having fun being with her but are not looking to get married, what makes you think she does not have the same view. If she does, then you would have broken up for no good reason. How bout you let the other person decide if she's fine with status quo?
You ask why? Because I don’t want to date someone I see no future with. I don’t think I’m in the minority, when it comes to this. Most folks break up when they see no future with each other.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text> This idea that any relationaship time not spent building towards marriage is a waste is ludicrous.
I didn’t say marriage, as in I would be in a hurry to get to the alter, but I wouldn’t waste time with someone who I knew I had no future with.

I also wouldn’t want to risk possibly getting stuck in such a relationship. Say she gets knocked up, for example.

It also just wouldn't work, because I'm very independent (much more independent than my wife, for example). If I'm not into a woman, I'm not going to fake it and she's not going to be a huge priority in my life. That will show, and when it comes to women, that's a big problem.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text> But he's not 35. He's early 20's. Probably fresh out of college. Has not started dow a career path. THIS is the best time for him to take his shot. Once he gets into that 9-5 grind, his chances of making it are going to plummet. His folks are giving him an opportunity.
It doesn’t matter what his age is because you said until his parents cut off the support, he’s not a loser.

Yes, tonka, this is his big shot. Once he gets into the 9-5 grind his chances of making are going to plummet all the way from .00000000000000000000000000000 0000000000001% of a chance to making it big time to 0%.

I wouldn’t call a drop from .00000000000000000000000000000 0000000000001% to 0% plummeting. I’d call that pretty much the same odds.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#57 Aug 17, 2012
j_m_w wrote:
I started off in Camp Loser but as this thread has progressed, I find myself coming around to Tonka's POV. I don't think I'd want to date someone like this guy from the letter, but is there something inherently wrong with him or the situation? What if his parents can afford to support him til the day they die, leave him a big enough inheritance to support him for the rest of HIS life, and teach him how to manage money? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.
You want me to hook you up with my brother. You can move in the basement with him.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#58 Aug 17, 2012
j_m_w wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess I'm saying that while I wouldn't want that in my life, who's he hurting? Could he be a more productive member of society? Of course. But so could I, and just about everyone else I know, technically.
The LW. Financially at least. She's the one wanting to know if she should keep this relationship up. She's a dingbat too b/c she wrote into an advice columnist to figure out what to do with her life.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#59 Aug 17, 2012
RACE wrote:
And if the well never runs dry? Is it ok to forever accept that generosity?
Are you telling me there is no magic number where you have to concede that a 45 yr old man who has lived his entire life in his parents house and never had a job because he was always working on his "music" must finally be called a loser?
<quoted text>
I don't know what the magic number is, but its certainly not early 20's.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#60 Aug 17, 2012
RACE wrote:
And whats wrong with having somebody wipe is ass for him after he craps? If he can afford it, no harm in that is there?
My point is, what about his personal growth? doing nothing with your life just because your born into money still makes you a loser.
<quoted text>
We shall agree to disagree. If my parents were mega rich and were able to bestow upon me enough money that I'd never have to work, I'd be one happy camper. I have a job for ONE reason. I got bills to pay. I need money in this life. If I won the lotto coming out of college and had enough to sustain me the rest of my life, there would never be a W-2 in my name.

Of course, if I blew thru it all and then was unable to support myself, then I'd slide into loserdom.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#61 Aug 17, 2012
j_m_w wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess I'm saying that while I wouldn't want that in my life, who's he hurting? Could he be a more productive member of society? Of course. But so could I, and just about everyone else I know, technically.
To me it's not about being a more productive member of society. It's his attitude that everyone should just support him in the hopes that he is the exception to the rule and makes it big time.

I would have never asked my parents to support me in my early 20s because I was pursuing my dreams of winning the lotto, which is essentially what he is trying to do. Hell more people win the lotto than ever make it big in a band.

All the guys I knew who were in bands, worked too or went to school. This guy thinks he's so f'ing talented that everyone should just provide for him.

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