“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#82 Aug 22, 2013
Just because people engage in behavior society has deemed immoral, does not mean society doesn't think it's immoral anymore. From your and Angela's argument, it sounds like you're saying "people do it, therefore it's not immoral."

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#83 Aug 22, 2013
No, it's "people do it and have no problem with doing it or with others doing it."

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#84 Aug 22, 2013
From a CAtholic website:

"more than 70% of Church-going Catholics do not hold or agree to the teaching the Church and Scripture that premarital sex (fornication) is always wrong. Among Catholics who do not go to Mass the number is even higher at 86%."

So it does appear that the majority of "society" is okay with sex before marriage.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#85 Aug 22, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
No, it's "people do it and have no problem with doing it or with others doing it."
Except that's not the case. I happen to think most people believe a man cheating on his sick spouse is immoral behavior. You don't.

“What's it to ya?”

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#86 Aug 22, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
No, it's "people do it and have no problem with doing it or with others doing it."
Keep in mind that he's basing "morality" on the bible, a book that was written by bronze age MEN to justify their behavior and ability to CONTROL other people, especially women.

They invented a god and told people that if they wanted to have a better life after they were dead (oxymoron much?) that they needed to do what the god told them was right, because the god wanted them to rape and abuse women, abuse animals, allow townspeople to rape their daughters instead of their visitors, sacrifice their kids...etc.

This god though never talked to the people only to a couple of "special" people wo then told everyone else what the god wanted them to do. Since they wanted above all else to control women's reproduction (in most patriarchal cultures this is true) they started saying this and that were either moral or immoral...some people still believe thatshit and try to force the issue as if it has some bearing in the modern day. <shrug> IOW...consider the source.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#87 Aug 22, 2013
Mimi Seattle wrote:
<quoted text>
Keep in mind that he's basing "morality" on the bible,.
No, I am not.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#88 Aug 22, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
So it does appear that the majority of "society" is okay with sex before marriage.
Irrelevant. Again, just because people do something, even a majority, doesn't negate the morality of said behavior.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#89 Aug 22, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Except that's not the case. I happen to think most people believe a man cheating on his sick spouse is immoral behavior. You don't.
I think there are shades of grey in that area.

But we were talking about premarital sex.

It's obvious: A majority of Americans do not think sex before marriage is immoral.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#90 Aug 22, 2013
"Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so. Aim above morality. Be not simply good, be good for something.”
&#8213; Henry David Thoreau

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#91 Aug 22, 2013
PEllen wrote:
<quoted text>
Dunno. We all have a limited store of altruism . He has enough going on with his wife dying. I think it would take a very big person to give up something that brings him pleasure (physical and otherwise) at this point.
You are asking a flawed man to martyr himself. What he should do is irrelevant at that point. LW is making drama when he is very vulnerable.
We are all flawed. I also don't consider it altruistic or martyrdom to be straight with someone who you are in a relationship with.

I know not everyone is that way, but it seems to me if you are sleeping with someone you kind of owe it to them to be honest about your feelings, desires, and where you see the relationship heading. I think when folks fail to be straight with people that you are involved with, that is slimy and deception. I don't like that.

Also, if your profess to loves someone and profess that you need them in your life, that doesn't seem to be the case when you expect them to maintain a relationship that is not equal, where the other is not happy with such inequality.

It would be one thing if the LW, were approaching things from a standpoint that she would like to be more than his mistress, understands that she can't be, and finds the current arrangement preferable to not having him in her life at all or if she just wasn't interested in a full time relationship and was happy just to have something on the side and occasional limited companionship, which is all he can offer her, but she's not.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#92 Aug 22, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Each individual has their own moral compass. Society as a whole determines what is moral for that society.
In a relationship between 2 adults, such as a marriage, what society feels only matters if you allow it to govern your conduct or it is illegal and you get caught.

If you are self assured and not doing anything illegal, you likely won't give a f' what society thinks, and why should you? It's your life. It is the only life you will have here. You may as well live it on your terms, not society's.

So, I don't know why you keep going on and on about society ... as if that should influence anybody's decision making, including the LW's.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#93 Aug 22, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Irrelevant. Again, just because people do something, even a majority, doesn't negate the morality of said behavior.
What is irrelevant is what other people think, including society, within the confines of a relationship between two consenting adults.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#94 Aug 22, 2013
It makes sense that edog would feel the way he does, though.

This is the same guy who would bring girls around just so other folks didn't think he was gay. From this you know he is very concerned with what others think of him and very concerned about approval from others.

It all stems from a lack of self-esteem and insecurity, however.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#95 Aug 22, 2013
I like this one:
“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”
&#8213; Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Ha! Love this:

“Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain God's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the great surveillance camera in the sky, or the still small wiretap inside your head, monitoring your every move, even your every base though.”
&#8213; Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

#96 Aug 22, 2013
What I want to know is where is edog getting these "Social Morals" from?

Are they written somewhere? Carved in a tablet? Is there an online page? No, they exist nowhere but in his cluttered little mind.

The only proof of any Social Morality is in our written laws. Murder is immoral within our society because we have a law declaring such.
Infidelity is not immoral within our society because there is no law forbidding it, but it is frowned upon as it can be used in a court to prove breach of contract (marriage). But to a martian, reading the laws of our country, they would have no idea that infidelity was "Immoral"

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#97 Aug 22, 2013
Not the same thing, but a good god-related discussion took place on Everybody Loves Raymond, and concluded with Ray saying, "You mean god makes us smart enough to want to know why we're here, but not smart enough to actually know the answer?"

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#98 Aug 22, 2013
RACE wrote:
What I want to know is where is edog getting these "Social Morals" from?
Are they written somewhere? Carved in a tablet? Is there an online page? No, they exist nowhere but in his cluttered little mind.
The only proof of any Social Morality is in our written laws. Murder is immoral within our society because we have a law declaring such.
Infidelity is not immoral within our society because there is no law forbidding it, but it is frowned upon as it can be used in a court to prove breach of contract (marriage). But to a martian, reading the laws of our country, they would have no idea that infidelity was "Immoral"
Many states (17, I think) are exclusively no fault divorce states too. They don't even give you the option to get into infidelity or prove misconduct.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#99 Aug 22, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
What is irrelevant is what other people think, including society, within the confines of a relationship between two consenting adults.
You keep talking about individual morality and I'm talking about society's morality. You are trying to argue something we are on completely different pages of.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#100 Aug 22, 2013
RACE wrote:
What I want to know is where is edog getting these "Social Morals" from?
Are they written somewhere? Carved in a tablet? Is there an online page? No, they exist nowhere but in his cluttered little mind.
The only proof of any Social Morality is in our written laws. Murder is immoral within our society because we have a law declaring such.
Infidelity is not immoral within our society because there is no law forbidding it, but it is frowned upon as it can be used in a court to prove breach of contract (marriage). But to a martian, reading the laws of our country, they would have no idea that infidelity was "Immoral"
Infidelity is illegal in many states.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#101 Aug 22, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
You keep talking about individual morality and I'm talking about society's morality. You are trying to argue something we are on completely different pages of.
You keep bringing up something that is completely irrelevant and nebulous to boot.

As Race said, what is society's morality? How do you determine this? Is it majority consensus? Even if it is majority consensus, why should I or anyone else live my or their life according to the majority consensus, if we are in the minority on a particular issue, the conduct is not illegal, and it involves a relationship between two consenting adults?

I fail to see why society's morality should matter, any way you slice it.

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