Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72030 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72372 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Nor mine. Not this time anyway.
I see what our wires got crossed here.
On the previous page we had the following exchange:
Frijoles: But to narrowly focus on your question - I would think you would need some type of god concept to be Jewish. Not necessarily theism, but something. Humanism crosses a red line.
FR: Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion. Theistic.
Also one is a theist or an atheist - the old binary switch is on or it isn't.(With gnostic vs agnostic question to quickly follow..) Again, boundaries, basic truths.
Guess I'm still not clear (or don't agree with) the "god concept" vs theism difference.
Otherwise, maybe I'm just being t0o strict and can go ahead and call myself Catholic or Christian. Perhaps I'm taking them too much at their word and respecting the religion and beliefs too much to still call myself one of them??
__________
I then posted 3 sources to more or less support or add to my side. Or so I thought.
And you responded to one of them. Which wasn't really my main point.
We got off on what Jews believe vs what makes one a theist.
Any religion can be defined more loosely than the old school. I see lots of leeway.
Hope this helps.
I take issue with your interpretation of this statement "Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion..."

When that is quoted, the emphasis is on MONO. To contrast with Christianity, where (wrongly or rightly) Judaism views as polytheistic.

The fact that "theism" is part of the term is because the term itself is a simplification that ignores the subtlety of Jewish theology - which is diverse - and NOT only includes conventional theism but panentheism, pantheism, nonduality etc etc - WHICH are not necessarily theologically opposite of theism - depending on the flavor they are different paradigms altogether.

The important part is the MONO. Which is why the most important prayer in the Jewish religion is the Shema (Hear o Israel, the lord our God, the lord is One). The emphasis is on the one, and when you recite the prayer, you emphasis the word one (in Hebrew - echad). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72376 Apr 23, 2014
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>

And an individual gold medal this year went to a kid who graduated from the same high school as my son. The US team received 4 gold and 2 silver.
IMO 2014 will be held in Cape Town, South Africa, on 3-13 July, 2014.

At IMO 2013, the US team (4 out of 6 team members were Asians) ranked 3rd and bagged 4 Gold medals and 2 Silver medals.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72377 Apr 23, 2014
US TEAM MEMBERS AT IMO 2013:

1) Mark Sellke - Gold

2) Bobby Shen - Gold

3) James Tao - Gold

4) Victor Wang - Gold

5) Ray Li - Silver

6) Thomas Swayze - Silver

(4 out of the 6 US team members are Chinese - LOL).

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72379 Apr 23, 2014
US TEAM MEMBERS AT IMO 2012:

1) Bobby Shen - Gold

2) David Yang - Gold

3) Thomas Swayze - Gold

4) Mitchell Lee - Gold

5) Ravi Jagadeesan - Gold

6) Xiaoyu He - Silver

(5 out of the 6 US team members are Asians - LOL)

(US Team Leader: Zuming Feng, Deputy Team Leader: Po-Shen Loh

US team ranked 3rd at IMO 2012 after South Korea and China.
Eric

Schaumburg, IL

#72380 Apr 23, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
US TEAM MEMBERS AT IMO 2013:
1) Mark Sellke - Gold
2) Bobby Shen - Gold
3) James Tao - Gold
4) Victor Wang - Gold
5) Ray Li - Silver
6) Thomas Swayze - Silver
(4 out of the 6 US team members are Chinese - LOL).
No, 6 out of 6 are Americans. One of them went to the same high school as my son. Do you want to see birth certificates or what?
Eric

Schaumburg, IL

#72381 Apr 23, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
US TEAM MEMBERS AT IMO 2012:
1) Bobby Shen - Gold
2) David Yang - Gold
3) Thomas Swayze - Gold
4) Mitchell Lee - Gold
5) Ravi Jagadeesan - Gold
6) Xiaoyu He - Silver
(5 out of the 6 US team members are Asians - LOL)
(US Team Leader: Zuming Feng, Deputy Team Leader: Po-Shen Loh
US team ranked 3rd at IMO 2012 after South Korea and China.
And India with its great school that you laud has never placed higher than 7th.( 29 11 23 36 28 31 25 35 36 14 15 9 7 14 18 7 15 14 14 16 15 21 10 17 25) If Indian schools are so great, why do their students score so low?

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72382 Apr 23, 2014
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>

No, 6 out of 6 are Americans. One of them went to the same high school as my son. Do you want to see birth certificates or what?
Chinese by birth, American by citizenship.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72383 Apr 23, 2014
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>

And India with its great school that you laud has never placed higher than 7th.( 29 11 23 36 28 31 25 35 36 14 15 9 7 14 18 7 15 14 14 16 15 21 10 17 25) If Indian schools are so great, why do their students score so low?
Yes, that's surprising.

One reason is that the IMO syllabus is quite different from the IIT JEE syllabus in some ways and to prepare for the IIT JEE one needs to work hard on Math, Physics and Chem and do exceedingly well at the entrance in all the 3 subjects to get a high rank.

However, India does very well at the IPhO (International Physics Olympiad) and placed 4th some years ago. India also does well at IChO.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72385 Apr 23, 2014
IIT JEE MATH SYLLABUS

PART 2:

Differential calculus

Real valued functions of a real variable, into, onto and one-to-one functions, sum, difference, product and quotient of two functions, composite functions, absolute value, polynomial, rational, trigonometric, exponential and logarithmic functions.

Limit and continuity of a function, limit and continuity of the sum, difference, product and quotient of two functions, L'Hospital rule of evaluation of limits of functions.

Even and odd functions, inverse of a function, continuity of composite functions, intermediate value property of continuous functions.

Derivative of a function, derivative of the sum, difference, product and quotient of two functions, chain rule, derivatives of polynomial, rational, trigonometric, inverse trigonometric, exponential and logarithmic functions.

Derivatives of implicit functions, derivatives up to order two, geometrical interpretation of the derivative, tangents and normals, increasing and decreasing functions, maximum and minimum values of a function, applications of Rolle's Theorem and Lagrange's Mean Value Theorem.

Integral calculus

Integration as the inverse process of differentiation, indefinite integrals of standard functions, definite integrals and their properties, application of the Fundamental Theorem of Integral Calculus.

Integration by parts, integration by the methods of substitution and partial fractions, application of definite integrals to the determination of areas involving simple curves.

Formation of ordinary differential equations, solution of homogeneous differential equations, variables separable method, linear first order differential equations.

Vectors

Addition of vectors, scalar multiplication, scalar products, dot and cross products, scalar triple products and their geometrical interpretations.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72386 Apr 23, 2014
IIT JEE MATH SYLLABUS

PART 3

Algebra of complex numbers, addition, multiplication, conjugation, polar representation, properties of modulus and principal argument, triangle inequality, cube roots of unity, geometric interpretations.

Quadratic equations with real coefficients, relations between roots and coefficients, formation of quadratic equations with given roots, symmetric functions of roots.

Arithmetic, geometric and harmonic progressions, arithmetic, geometric and harmonic means, sums of finite arithmetic and geometric progressions, infinite geometric series, sums of squares and cubes of the first n natural numbers.

Logarithms and their properties.

Permutations and combinations, Binomial theorem for a positive integral index, properties of binomial coefficients.

Matrices as a rectangular array of real numbers, equality of matrices, addition, multiplication by a scalar and product of matrices, transpose of a matrix, determinant of a square matrix of order up to three, inverse of a square matrix of order up to three, properties of these matrix operations, diagonal, symmetric and skew-symmetric matrices and their properties, solutions of simultaneous linear equations in two or three variables.

Addition and multiplication rules of probability, conditional probability, independence of events, computation of probability of events using permutations and combinations.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72387 Apr 23, 2014
IIT JEE MATH SYLLABUS

PART 4

Trigonometric functions, their periodicity and graphs, addition and subtraction formulae, formulae involving multiple and sub-multiple angles, general solution of trigonometric equations.

Relations between sides and angles of a triangle, sine rule, cosine rule, half-angle formula and the area of a triangle, inverse trigonometric functions (principal value only).

Analytical geometry

Two dimensions: Cartesian coordinates, distance between two points, section formulae, shift of origin.

Equation of a straight line in various forms, angle between two lines, distance of a point from a line. Lines through the point of intersection of two given lines, equation of the bisector of the angle between two lines, concurrency of lines, centroid, orthocentre, incentre and circumcentre of a triangle.

Equation of a circle in various forms, equations of tangent, normal and chord.

Parametric equations of a circle, intersection of a circle with a straight line or a circle, equation of a circle through the points of intersection of two circles and those of a circle and a straight line.

Equations of a parabola, ellipse and hyperbola in standard form, their foci, directrices and eccentricity, parametric equations, equations of tangent and normal.

Locus Problems.

Three dimensions: Direction cosines and direction ratios, equation of a straight line in space, equation of a plane, distance of a point from a plane.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72388 Apr 23, 2014
SYLLABUS FOR THE IMO:

Number systems, arithmetic of integers, geometry, quadratic equations and expressions, trigonometry, co-ordinate geometry, systems of linear equations, permutations and combinations, factorisation of polynomials, inequalities, elementary combinatorics, probability theory, number theory, infinite series, complex numbers and elementary graph theory. Calculus and statistics are not included.

NOTE: The typical areas for problems at the IMO are: number theory, geometry, algebra and combinatorics.

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#72389 Apr 24, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Chinese by birth, American by citizenship.
How do you know they were born in China?
They are Americans.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72390 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The first book is written by a rabbi about how to better experience god without all these preconceived notions of what we were taught or thought god was or should be.
"Awakened to finally experience a personal connection to God, we are at last able to receive God's love unconditionally and discover our ultimate identity, divine purpose, and true happiness."
Maybe I've lost the point.
Are you saying the author is not a theist? That he writes a book about connecting to god but doesn't believe there is a god?
I thought your articles were countering the definitions I posted of god concept, theist, jewish god concept etc.....right?
You were trying to say that you were not a theist because your belief in god is a little looser than some, correct? I think that's the part I wasn't quite buying. To me, you are a theist and think to most folks you would be.
Bottom line.
I admit that the Amazon descriptions could be better (to support my point that there are more god concepts out there than you might assume) but the book is from the perspective of applied kabbala - hardly the old man in the sky god concept. Incidentally, the author is an orthodox Rabbi. But read these reviews:

3 of 3 people found the following review helpful
Excellent read for anyone-- the zealot or the agnostic
By Dora White on September 7, 2007
Format: Paperback Verified Purchase
This book expounds on the Jewish perspective of God and nullifies misconceptions. It elucidates the mystical concept of a Higher Being and introduces a new concept of Panentheism as an addendum to Monotheism. This books is very useful and a very good, smooth read. It does an excellent job of clarifying the concept of God in Judaism.

1 of 1 people found the following review helpful
4.0 out of 5 stars Some Medieval Reticence, August 12, 2010
By Eric Maroney (Trumansburg, NY)- See all my reviews
Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: The Secret Life of God: Discovering the Divine Within You (Hardcover)
Rabbi David Aaron is a great speaker, getting his ideas across with clarity and humor. Much of this shows through in The Secret Life of God.
Here, the Rabbi walks the fine line between pantheism and panentheism. He wants God to literally fill the whole universe, and have people and the universe be an expression of God; but he also wants God to be separate from people and the universe, so Judaism does not fall into what he views as the trap of pantheism.
These are tricky arguments, and the neat division between pantheism and panentheism is still one that I do not see (or understand). Regardless, it is refreshing to see Rabbi Aaron express some of the more esoteric doctrines of the Kabalah, long considered dangerous, and share his trepidation in writing them down. In a world where everything is accessible and everything is uttered, it is pleasing to see a little medieval reticence.

5.0 out of 5 stars Empowering look at Jewish understanding of Divinity, June 16, 2013
By Weshakat - See all my reviews
Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: The Secret Life of God: Discovering the Divine within You (Paperback)
This is not written by your average Rabbi. David Aaron makes the heart of the Kabbalah understandable for Jewish and non-Jewish (me) readers. And by introducing a panentheistic view of the Divine he opens up a whole new realm of understanding.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72391 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You were trying to say that you were not a theist because your belief in god is a little looser than some, correct? I think that's the part I wasn't quite buying. To me, you are a theist and think to most folks you would be.
Bottom line.
That wasnt my argument. We already discussed that days ago.

Our discussion was over what a "god concept" meant vs God. I introduced the term god concept to acknowledge that any discussion about what Jews believe should include conceptions of God beyond the old man in the sky IMPLIED by classic theism. Then, as a response to your questioning, I went on to claim that these approaches are now popular (again) enough to be considered mainstream.(I say "again,. because they were popular until a few hundred years as well).

I never, or didnt intend, to bring the discussion on what I believed. Rather I was trying to objectively address what Jews believed.

To really get into the differences of classic theism vs panentheism and hasidism is really beyond the scope of our discussion for now, and gets complicated. Hence the need for books like those.

But one academic point I will make again is that panentheism et al isnt necessarily OPPOSED to theism, rather it is viewing the issue from a totally different philosophical framework altogether - an analytical framework that is more useful for understanding the depth of accepted Jewish theologies than the theism vs atheism framework.

Since you earlier posed the question about what Jews believed and the boundaries of their belief (i.e. what is acceptable and what is not) all of these posts (especially the books) have not been to waste - rather they are presented as an answer to your question about what is considered within the realm of acceptable beliefs.
Eric

Schaumburg, IL

#72392 Apr 24, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Chinese by birth, American by citizenship.
The kids never lived in China. Born in US. How many generations must go by until you will recognize them as Americans? I am only the second generation of my family born in the US. Am I Ukrainian and Lithuanian or am I American? Or, even better, am I Spanish since my family sailed to the Ukraine in the 15th Century? Or, am I Russian because the Russian Empire ruled the Ukraine and Lithuania when my families left at the turn of the 20th Century.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72393 Apr 24, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Three of those four books are by authors who are not strict theists. All four Rabbis are very well known, they are not considered outliers by any account. The books represent 3 of the four major movements Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist.
The point being (addressing your previous post), this IS mainstream. Go into ANY synagogue today that has adult education classes and these concepts will be discussed. This wasnt true 30 years ago.
It seems that in many religions - not just Judaism - "anything goes" these days. Vatican II loosed things up for Catholics quite a bit, back in the 60s.

The institutions have probably realized if they're too strict, they will lose numbers and fail to thrive. The need butts in the pews and money to survive.

But we are still speaking within the context of religion, god, god concept - yes, theism. Without that, you have no collective, no organization, nothing to bring you out of you house on the weekends.
Eric

Schaumburg, IL

#72394 Apr 24, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, that's surprising.
One reason is that the IMO syllabus is quite different from the IIT JEE syllabus in some ways and to prepare for the IIT JEE one needs to work hard on Math, Physics and Chem and do exceedingly well at the entrance in all the 3 subjects to get a high rank.
However, India does very well at the IPhO (International Physics Olympiad) and placed 4th some years ago. India also does well at IChO.
And, why is IIT ranked so low in world wide rankings--both overall and by subject--if it's so great? http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-u...
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72395 Apr 24, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I take issue with your interpretation of this statement "Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion..."
When that is quoted, the emphasis is on MONO. To contrast with Christianity, where (wrongly or rightly) Judaism views as polytheistic.
The fact that "theism" is part of the term is because the term itself is a simplification that ignores the subtlety of Jewish theology - which is diverse - and NOT only includes conventional theism but panentheism, pantheism, nonduality etc etc - WHICH are not necessarily theologically opposite of theism - depending on the flavor they are different paradigms altogether.
The important part is the MONO. Which is why the most important prayer in the Jewish religion is the Shema (Hear o Israel, the lord our God, the lord is One). The emphasis is on the one, and when you recite the prayer, you emphasis the word one (in Hebrew - echad). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael
Catholics believe in one god (in 3 persons). This is religion 101. Whatever happened to your love of nuance? Not too hard to keep this straight.

If you want to redefine the major religions, the Abrahamic, monotheistic religions, have at it. Doesn't mean everyone will agree, but if your definitions work for you - ok.

Christianity came of out of Judaism. This is a fact. They share a largely common belief up to the JC portion of the story.

I posted the god concept article which included pantheism et al. If you simply want to say "god is everywhere" or everything or god is a tree. You have a god concept. I see that as theism. One I don't share. We can disagree on that. But I think you somehow want to have an "other" belief. I agree with CoR about theism being a binary switch and clearly yours is ON.

It may just come down to labeling but that's how I see it. And the god concept bit supports it.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72396 Apr 24, 2014
Conceptions of God in monotheist, pantheist and panentheist religions – or of the supreme deity in henotheistic religions – can extend to various levels of abstraction:
##as a powerful, human-like, supernatural being, or as the deification of an esoteric, mystical or philosophical entity or category;
##as the "Ultimate", the summum bonum, the "Absolute Infinite", the "Transcendent", or Existence or Being itself;
##as the ground of being, the monistic substrate, that which we cannot understand; and so on.

__________

Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity,[1] or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god.[3] Some Eastern religions are considered to be pantheistically inclined.

__________

So I clearly see we aren't talking about the old man up in the sky.

But we are still talking about a god concept. Divinity.

That everything comes from a source other than themselves.

This gives them someone to pray to.

"Some consider it a theological and philosophical position concerning God.[4]:p.8"

God.

Atheists don't have this sort of take on things.

That switch is turned off (for now anyway).

Yours is turned on.

Theism/god belief switch is on.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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