Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70652
Apr 1, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I learned all this Catholic theology growing up and finally asked how we know any of it is true.
The response was, "Fatih." That's where I got off the bus.
Fatih? Special Catholic war cry?

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#70653
Apr 1, 2014
 

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Dualism is superseded by qualified nondualism and qualified nondualism is exceeded by nondualism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70654
Apr 1, 2014
 
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
BOTTOM LINE:
To declare "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.
Unless you are prophesying, which is a state of devekut

So you are wrong, again.

shocking, shocking, shocking...

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#70655
Apr 1, 2014
 

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Devekut is a discipline that teaches closeness to G-d but in no way does it preach becoming G-d via the union in consciousness in deep trance of the subject with the object. Devekut does not teach that a human psychic can become G-d. For a human being to declare, "I am G-d" is a blasphemy in Judaism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70656
Apr 1, 2014
 
former res wrote:
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I think so but I'm not sure. She lives in Europe.
I know I mentioned this but many years ago my wife conducted a sort of "comparative religion" review (as my dad told me he did as a young adult).
Both searching I suppose.... My wife concluded that Judaism was possibly the most reasonable of the ones she looked at. She thought the extra leap the Christians made in the story was a bridge too far. She wasn't raised in any particular religion. She doesn't follow any religion but I thought it was interesting anyway.
My dad OTOH was an altar boy as a kid. He said "All the miracles occurred in the Catholic church." Let's just say, I was too young at the time to counter that with explaining the "self-reporting" "confirmation bias" etc.....He was born in 1926 and wasn't about to leave the church he was born into. Regardless of what his review showed him.
Its all a leap - as you might say, one pink elephant for another

But the disadvantage of Christianity is that they partially base it on Hebrew text, without taking the time to study it in the actual language on the lay level. So the OT portion becomes a grand game of telephone. That never ends well.
former res

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#70657
Apr 1, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
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If she is telling me she sees a pink elephant, then she is NOT acting normally. So I would ding her on basis of her behavior. If she told me that God talks to her and tells her what to to do, I would not hire her (I might think that personally that this is an interesting lifestyle, but not for my kids). If she said she sees God in everything she does, then I might hire her (but keep an eye on her). That's relatively normal.
I am not sure where you are coming from. But its also a question of what type of values one wants to expose to their children. I dont value the pink elephant religion. I might value other forms of religion though. I have nothing against Christianity, or Christian nannys, provided it is kept within acceptable bounds.
Who says we're talking about Christians? Many Jews believe in god too.(Note I'm not saying how many...)

So you won't answer my pink elephant question without changing it to her acting abnormal.....moving right along.....

So it's ok if god talks to your future nanny but not if he gives her advice or guidance?

Though I would think many people (of those who pray) pray for strength/guidance etc...

If she see god on her toast, that's evidently ok too. Ok.

My questions had to do more with mental health/stability than with the theology itself.

Just don't ask where we're going with this....not sure.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70658
Apr 1, 2014
 
JOEL wrote:
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I haven't found a trace of nondualism - complete union via trance of the object with the subject - in Hasidism and Devekut.
If the practice found in Hasidism and Devekut culminates in the experience of nondualism, then the experiencer (sage) should become one with G-d in that state of the deepest trance.
Does Hasidism and Devekut say that the nondual experience results in perfect union in consciousness with HaShem after which the sage can stand up and declare, "I am HaShem"? No!
To declare, "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.
So, Judaism, in any of its variants, is stuck on the lowly level of dualism.
LOL.
There are no Devekut Policemen that I know of, who might say either way.

So I dont where you get any of this.

To say "I am hashem" in ordinary consciousness would be theologically fraught - but that is normal consciousness.

I am not sure what you mean as blasphemy. Thats an English term. You would have to connect it to a negative mitzvot. maybe chillul hashem. But probably not.

A while ago FR called you an intellectual light weight. So far I have yet to see anything from your side that proves otherwise. Your critique is really juvenile.

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#70659
Apr 1, 2014
 

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Hasidism that teaches the immanence of G-d in the universe does not ever say that the awakened human consciousness can become equal to the consciousness of G-d via the subject-object union. Hasidism does not teach that a human being can declare, "I am G-d". So, Hasidism is not nondualism.
former res

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#70660
Apr 1, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Fatih? Special Catholic war cry?
I've heard many times that faith is "a gift." "The gift of faith" and so on.

I feel so ripped off! I never got mine..

:))

April Fools!

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#70661
Apr 1, 2014
 

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CONCLUSION:

Neither Hasidism nor Devekut has anything to do with nondualism. In nondualism, the human being can stand up and declare, "I am G-d" on experiencing the nondual consciousness in which the divide between the subject and the object breaks down. Hasidism and Devekut are ignorant strains of dualism which is an irrational doctrine that seeks to separate cause from its own effects and gives rise to creationist beliefs and tribalism. LOL.

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#70662
Apr 1, 2014
 

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GIST OF NONDUALISM

From the nondual source, we manifest as holons and the individual holon on awakening to its full potential can rise back to its sublime nondual status and become one with its source.

TAT Tvam Asi - THAT am I.

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#70663
Apr 1, 2014
 

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The Kabbalah that originated in ancient Chaldea borrowed its major ideas and main practices from the Tantra especially the Kashmiri variant of Tantra which is mostly occult-based.

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#70664
Apr 1, 2014
 

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TANTRA, in its conceptualization and meditative practices, leads, via the trance state, to the plane of the Shiva Consciousness. The mystic during trance merges in consciousness with the impersonal Shiva Consciousness-Force and becomes one with it and as result of the nondual union with the Shiva cries out, "Soham" - "I am the Shiva". The plane of the Shiva Consciousness-Force is not a very high plane of cosmic consciousness.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70665
Apr 1, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I've heard many times that faith is "a gift." "The gift of faith" and so on.
I feel so ripped off! I never got mine..
:))
April Fools!
Thats interesting.

Because that is not how most Jews would approach it. We are trained to struggle, to wrestle, to question, to argue, and in the case of pure faith - view it as an action (and not a belief) and therefore as a practice in its own right.

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#70666
Apr 1, 2014
 
former res wrote:
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Disagree. Simply an absence of belief.
Don't you think that the absence of belief may be due to more than one reason?
former res wrote:
<quoted text>More like many ways to become a believer.
I can apply your logic here, to which I disagree with it. It's one way. Simply put it, faith.

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#70667
Apr 1, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I've heard many times that faith is "a gift." "The gift of faith" and so on.
I feel so ripped off! I never got mine..
:))
April Fools!
Some notable quotes on faith:

"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus

"'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God,'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'" -- Douglas Adams

"Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence." -- Anonymous

"The Way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason." -- Benjamin Franklin

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." -- Richard Dawkins

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70668
Apr 1, 2014
 
JOEL wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't found a trace of nondualism - complete union via trance of the object with the subject - in Hasidism and Devekut.
If the practice found in Hasidism and Devekut culminates in the experience of nondualism, then the experiencer (sage) should become one with G-d in that state of the deepest trance.
Does Hasidism and Devekut say that the nondual experience results in perfect union in consciousness with HaShem after which the sage can stand up and declare, "I am HaShem"? No!
To declare, "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.
So, Judaism, in any of its variants, is stuck on the lowly level of dualism.
LOL.
If you go deeper in to the literature, the answer would be yes.- one could become one with God

there is a famous debate about this - about whether deveket is union or just attachment

I dont know if you could get that off of google, you would have to get access to actual texts

the point is you are wrong

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#70669
Apr 1, 2014
 

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The negative side of tantra is very dangerous and can maim, turn insane, blind, paralyze, mind control or kill a person on whom it is practiced. There exist certain practitioners of the negative aspect of tantra who dabble with these dangerous powers much to the misfortune of the many innocent persons on whom they direct their occult energies. Intel agencies like the CIA make certain use of the techniques deriving from the adverse aspect of the tantra to create mind-control slaves of the MK-Ultra kind. Fritz Springmeir, Henry Makow, Phil Schneider, Aleister Crowley and others have revealed many of the details. Intel agencies also employ experts in remote viewing.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70670
Apr 1, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Who says we're talking about Christians? Many Jews believe in god too.(Note I'm not saying how many...)
So you won't answer my pink elephant question without changing it to her acting abnormal.....moving right along.....
So it's ok if god talks to your future nanny but not if he gives her advice or guidance?
Though I would think many people (of those who pray) pray for strength/guidance etc...
If she see god on her toast, that's evidently ok too. Ok.
My questions had to do more with mental health/stability than with the theology itself.
Just don't ask where we're going with this....not sure.
There is a difference between seeing God in everything, and having God talk to you. One is less theistic than the other. I admit you might not have caught the distinction since you are not familiar with the nuances of Hasidic vs normative Jewish theology. In my circles, the former is still within the realm of normal.

But bottom line, I would expect a nanny to be able to perform her day to day nanny duties without having to consult with God. I would define that as normal. What she(he) does during formal worship is not my business.

I think there are 2 issues here. What I think of as normal. And whether what I may feel is normal still may appear as within the realm of pink elephant to you.

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#70671
Apr 1, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Some notable quotes on faith:
"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus
"'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God,'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'" -- Douglas Adams
"Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence." -- Anonymous
"The Way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason." -- Benjamin Franklin
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." -- Richard Dawkins
The problem with that perspective is that is ASSUMES that the only use of faith is to obstruct reason. I disagree.

It can be used to obstruct reason, of course. But it also has a role in removing a cognitive block to immediate experience. Thats the part that you and I keep arguing about, but the point is that one does not always need to be a linear trajectory of thought forms at all times. Certainly not when one is experiencing art. Or worship. etc etc

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