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Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66663 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?
Religion vs not-religion?
Whatever labels you want to use.
I think we're all being relatively civil.
Agree.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66664 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles---Almost 98% of most Jews today, those with Jewish educations that surpass 7th grade, believe or follow any of a plethora of God models that are far from the literal man in the sky that you have inherited from your Christian background.

HughBe----What a totally DISHONEST statement. It is NOT possible for 98% to do as you say when almost 50% are atheists or agnostics. In addition there are many Jews who are into Eastern religions and Christianity, a religion that for 4 centuries was regarded as a Jewish sect.

Frijoles--- And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment.

HughBe--- Are you really a Jew and more importantly a member of Judaism? Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66665 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles---But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.

Former res---If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:
1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected
I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.

HughBe--- Why are you flocing with Frijoles?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66666 Jan 31, 2014
"ladies", please remember that you no longer have your lame excuse for not responding to me. YOUR question was answered.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66667 Feb 1, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>

I disagree with your definitions and separation of ethics and morality. I see them as one and the same, and I also reject the concept of an objective morality. Throughout human history, morality is and always has been relative.
Well, they aren't MY definitions. They are the definitions laid down by and agreed upon by philosophers a long time before either of us were born.

Morality is that which is intrinsically wrong, good and evil if you will. The origins of which lie to the in the major religions of the world -- don't murder, don't steal, etc. It is accepted that morality transcends cultural norms. Society might say it's OK to kill, morality supersedes that.

Ethics are rules of conduct laid down by societies or classes (what is ethical for one class in society might not be ethical for another). Ethics are ephemeral, and go in and out of fashion much more capriciously than morals.

I'm not surprised you're unaware of the actual distinctive definitions as the words are often (and incorrectly) used synonymously.

I was away for Chinese New Year and Shabbat -- but I see from a quick check that you guys have been going around on this same issue for the past 50 hours. I'm surprised you haven't solved it yet.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66668 Feb 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:
1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected
I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.
I'm curious as to why you're so interested in what others believe? I'm sure no one here gives a fetid dingo's kidney what you believe.

Is it that you're so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to validate them with groupthink?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66669 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm curious as to why you're so interested in what others believe? I'm sure no one here gives a fetid dingo's kidney what you believe.
So it's all about you?

You must be a lot of fun on dates.

"Me, me, me!"
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it that you're so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to validate them with groupthink?
Exactly. I take a vote and then decide what to believe.

You see everything. Amazing.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66670 Feb 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So it's all about you?
You say that like it's a bad thing. I do live in solipsistic universe after all.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66671 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
You say that like it's a bad thing. I do live in solipsistic universe after all.
Perhaps egocentric would be more on the mark for you.

I've always considered myself more pragmatic than idealistic.

But still very curious.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66672 Feb 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text
...I've always considered myself more pragmatic than idealistic.
I don't remember asking how you considered yourself. Anyone else ask him? Show of hands?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66673 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't remember asking how you considered yourself. Anyone else ask him? Show of hands?
And we're back to that egocentric thing again.

Me, me, me!

Do chicks (or fellas) dig that where you are?

Here not so much.

But I bet your mommy loves you.

Do you yell upstairs to her when you want a sammitch?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66674 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
Well, they aren't MY definitions. They are the definitions laid down by and agreed upon by philosophers a long time before either of us were born.
Morality is that which is intrinsically wrong, good and evil if you will. The origins of which lie to the in the major religions of the world -- don't murder, don't steal, etc. It is accepted that morality transcends cultural norms. Society might say it's OK to kill, morality supersedes that.
Ethics are rules of conduct laid down by societies or classes (what is ethical for one class in society might not be ethical for another). Ethics are ephemeral, and go in and out of fashion much more capriciously than morals.
I'm not surprised you're unaware of the actual distinctive definitions as the words are often (and incorrectly) used synonymously.
I was away for Chinese New Year and Shabbat -- but I see from a quick check that you guys have been going around on this same issue for the past 50 hours. I'm surprised you haven't solved it yet.
You can argue philosophy all you want. Philosophers do it all the time and never seem to come to much consensus.

I was approaching it from a pragmatic perspective. But if you want to get specific, ethics is a social system (external) whereas morality is an individual system (internal). Morality is based on an individual's ideas of what is good or bad. This notion that morality didn't exist prior to religion or that it transcends cultural norms is hogwash. I'd be interested in knowing what philosopher outside of religious thinkers convinced you of that. Religion merely codified and enforced certain social norms. It you want to talk about where morality comes from "intrinsically" look no further than evolution and the notion that what is good for the group, also benefits me.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66675 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
This notion that morality didn't exist prior to religion or that it transcends cultural norms is hogwash.

I'd be interested in knowing what philosopher outside of religious thinkers convinced you of that. Religion merely codified and enforced certain social norms. It you want to talk about where morality comes from "intrinsically" look no further than evolution and the notion that what is good for the group, also benefits me.
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.

My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.

However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66676 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?
Religion vs not-religion?
Whatever labels you want to use.
I think we're all being relatively civil.
Back from a hiatus.

My roles here was to provide another POV. It was never to say that the POV was THE answer. You properly called me on the carpet when you thought I was coming off as arrogant. My response was to refine my answer to make it more understandable, thats all. I dont wish to convince you of anything.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66677 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.
Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.
I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
<quoted text>
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok! but then why religion?
So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?
"why religion"?

Its up to you to flesh out an answer to this - not me - I am not here to convince you to join a religion. That would be inauthentic for you. You have to figure it out for yourself on your terms.

I'd imagine some people have a yearning to connect to something greater than themselves. To those people, the next step is to seek out a vocabulary to help them express this yearning. Organized religion provides that vocabulary and a path.

If you dont have the motivation (yearning, calling, whatever), then the path is not attractive to you, and the vocabulary is meaningless.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66678 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok! but then why religion?
So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?
My posts were about BEHAVING more deeply than others, and I already established that you dont have to be "religious" in the common theist sense of the word to be like this. You just need to be aware (i.e. stop mulltitasking).

If anything, its thinking LESS deeply.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66680 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
....... are multitasking and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast

I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.
Of course you can still enjoy yourself when you multi-task (who am I to tell you what you can or can not feel?)

But by definition, when multi-tasking, you are enjoying more than one tasks simultaneously. In other words, you are going WIDE on multiple tasks instead of DEEP on one task..

Thats what I meant by being more deep. Being more focused. By focusing on breakfast alone, you can experience tastes, smells, textures, sight of your meal without distraction. You dilute this experience when reading the paper, talking on the phone etc etc.

We already agreed that this behavior pattern - deep focus - is uncorrelated with practice of theist religion. However, non-theist "religion" or behavior philosophy does encourage this type of behavior pattern.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66681 Feb 2, 2014
HughBe wrote:
Frijoles---Almost 98% of most Jews today, those with Jewish educations that surpass 7th grade, believe or follow any of a plethora of God models that are far from the literal man in the sky that you have inherited from your Christian background.
HughBe----What a totally DISHONEST statement. It is NOT possible for 98% to do as you say when almost 50% are atheists or agnostics. In addition there are many Jews who are into Eastern religions and Christianity, a religion that for 4 centuries was regarded as a Jewish sect.
note the qualifier
HughBe wrote:
Frijoles--- And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment.
HughBe--- Are you really a Jew and more importantly a member of Judaism? Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
Even better, show me in the bible where the holiday theologies come from.

Good luck with that.

I'll save you time. The detailed theologies came later.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66682 Feb 2, 2014
HughBe wrote:
Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
To continue to save you time and worthless rhetorical questioning, I might add that the central mitzvot of the holidays - the central mitzvah of Rosh Hashanah (to hear the shofar) and the central mitzvah of Yom Kippur (to afflict yourself)- ARE in the primary text of the bible.

However, the holiday theologies you are referencing are not, rather they are found in the Talmud.

Which brings us back to the question, why follow those mitzvot? Or any mitzvot? The answer to that question would be subject to interpretation, and with no due respect, given your obnoxiousness, you are the LAST person I would have that discussion with.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66683 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.
My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.
However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.
Evolution of morality

The evolution of morality refers to the emergence of human moral behavior over the course of human evolution. Morality can be defined as a system of ideas about right and wrong conduct. In everyday life, morality is typically associated with human behavior and not much thought is given to the social conducts of other creatures. The emerging fields of evolutionary biology and in particular sociobiology have argued that, though human social behaviors are complex, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals. Sociobiological explanations of human behavior are still controversial. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative, although others argue that there is a science of morality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mor...

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