Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 71944 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66496 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
...Murder, on the other hand is a completely different thing involving the deliberate killing of a person not in the defence of ourselves or others and (most of the time) I agree it's impolite to murder someone.
Unless god says it's okay. I forget who it was that said religion can make otherwise moral people do immoral things - and this is true of most religions.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66497 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless god says it's okay. I forget who it was that said religion can make otherwise moral people do immoral things - and this is true of most religions.
the quote was that it made otherwise moral people do disgusting things, and the author was none other than Christopher Hitchens, a drunk.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66498 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless god says it's okay. I forget who it was that said religion can make otherwise moral people do immoral things - and this is true of most religions.
It's safe to say that an equal to or greater number of people have been stopped or dissuaded from doing immoral things by the tenets of their faiths.

Given that none of us are able to see into the hearts of others, we don't know.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66499 Jan 29, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
the quote was that it made otherwise moral people do disgusting things, and the author was none other than Christopher Hitchens, a drunk.
Ad hominem? That seems a bit harsh calling him a drunk, as if that somehow diminishes his contributions (do you refer to Hemingway, Poe, Churchill, etc... as simply drunks, without acknowledging their contributions?)

Yes, it's well known that Hitchens drank a lot, but, whether you agree with his positions or not, his drinking certainly didn't diminish his wit or intellect in any discernible manner. He killed it in most debates.

Besides, I prefer to focus on the message, not the messanger.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66500 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
It's safe to say that an equal to or greater number of people have been stopped or dissuaded from doing immoral things by the tenets of their faiths.
Disagree.

I would argue that if a person needs religion to act morally, then there is something fundamentally wrong with them.

I would also argue that when people do moral things ,they do so out of innate empathy for their fellow humans (or other living creatures), and not because religion told them to.

Besides, I would far rather trust a person who did good out of their empathetic nature over someone who was doing a good deed simply because they're afraid of the "punishment" they might receive in the afterlife if they didn't.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66501 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Ad hominem? That seems a bit harsh calling him a drunk, as if that somehow diminishes his contributions (do you refer to Hemingway, Poe, Churchill, etc... as simply drunks, without acknowledging their contributions?)
Yes, it's well known that Hitchens drank a lot, but, whether you agree with his positions or not, his drinking certainly didn't diminish his wit or intellect in any discernible manner. He killed it in most debates.
Besides, I prefer to focus on the message, not the messanger.
Exactly - you got my point

now reverse it. Person kills. Is it because of the person or his occupation?

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66502 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Disagree.
Your right. But, if you're trying to convince anyone but yourself (you seem already convinced)... bring data.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66503 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
...Besides, I would far rather trust a person who did good out of their empathetic nature over someone who was doing a good deed simply because they're afraid of the "punishment" they might receive in the afterlife if they didn't.
I can see you have significantly greater exposure to Xtianity than to Judaism. In Xtianity, the threat of eternal damnation is held over the head of all believers. Hell awaits unrepentant sinners.

In Judaism, there is a moral imperative to make the world a better place -- tikkun olam (quite literally "heal the world"). This isn't a biblical injunction that comes with a threat of punishment but as a benefit to social harmony. The torah, indeed all Jewish scripture, is extremely vague on the subject of the afterlife, it's punishments or rewards.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66504 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Your right. But, if you're trying to convince anyone but yourself (you seem already convinced)... bring data.
I should point out, because the words are so often confused -- I mean this IS your right -- not you ARE right.

Normally I wouldn't need to point that out because vocal inflection would make it clear.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66505 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Would a Jew ridicule his own beliefs? Have you ever MET a Jew? We're not hard to find. Talk to your boss, your landlord, your parole officer ... try to get some first hand information on us.
Do I believe Judaism is better than other faiths? Yes, but only for me. I believe that whatever you believe is best for you (and if it's not, why would you believe it?).
Rick Moss ---Would a Jew ridicule his own beliefs?

HughBe--- 1. What beliefs are you talking about? 2. YOU seem to be talking about every Jew, am I correct?

Ricky---- Have you ever MET a Jew? We're not hard to find. Talk to your boss, your landlord, your parole officer ... try to get some first hand information on us

HughBe--- Why do you feel the need to rub in the FACT that JEWS are MASTERS over their SERVANTS meaning they are masters over every other race and countries including the President and Congress of the US, the AMERICAN people and even Singapore and its people where you live. In any event, such is the case because of their SUPERIOR intelligence and innate powers.

The rest of us know that parole officers are for us and that it does not apply to big US.
At this point, I feel a great need for a word of wisdom NOT from the Talmud but from the scriptures.

Yes, I have gotten it. "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Proverbs 16:18.

Oh Ricky, be comforted those words of Solomon are not for US it is only applicable to the PRIDE of others or little us. I know that you already know this to be true as no doubt your masters or god-men have taught you so along with your sacred writings the Talmud.

Ricky---Do I believe Judaism is better than other faiths? Yes, but only for me.

HughBe--- Accepted, it gives you exactly what you want to hear.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66506 Jan 29, 2014
later

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66507 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Disagree.
I would argue that if a person needs religion to act morally, then there is something fundamentally wrong with them.
.
No one was making that argument that people need religion to act morally. Thats like saying secular people NEED literature (or common sense, or good genetics, or proper parenting, or laws...etc etc) to act morally.

why cant religion/literature/common sense/genetic etc etc provide "reminders" for people to act morally? You are framing it as a necessary chain of absolute causation. Just because someone identifies as religions does not make them an automaton.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66508 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Your right. But, if you're trying to convince anyone but yourself (you seem already convinced)... bring data.
I was replying to your statement: "It's safe to say that an equal to or greater number of people have been stopped or dissuaded from doing immoral things by the tenets of their faiths."

If you're going to ask me to bring data to back my position, you should consider doing the same.

Bottom Line: For every good deed a religious person does, I can counter with a negative deed, so that type of argument isn't going to get us anywhere. I'm more interested in the motivation behind a person's deeds. I'll address that in my next reply to your other post.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66509 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I can see you have significantly greater exposure to Xtianity than to Judaism. In Xtianity, the threat of eternal damnation is held over the head of all believers. Hell awaits unrepentant sinners.
In Judaism, there is a moral imperative to make the world a better place -- tikkun olam (quite literally "heal the world"). This isn't a biblical injunction that comes with a threat of punishment but as a benefit to social harmony. The torah, indeed all Jewish scripture, is extremely vague on the subject of the afterlife, it's punishments or rewards.
If, in Judaism, the moral imperative to make the world a better place is not a biblical injunction, then we aren't talking about religion, but rather, a form of secular humanism that everyone should sign up to.

But, if I'm not mistaken, I thought Jewish belief involved the idea that the Jews have a special covenant with God, and with that covenant comes certain behavioral requirements. So there ARE biblical imperatives that guide/dictate certain deeds. Certainly, in the bible, when these deeds weren't met, there were negative repercussions via divine intervention.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66510 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless god says it's okay. I forget who it was that said religion can make otherwise moral people do immoral things - and this is true of most religions.
rabbee: organized religion - does not change the immorality, of the people involved in it. it just gives them, a pretend looking good cover story excuse.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66511 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
wrote:
Ad hominem? That seems a bit harsh calling him a drunk, as if that somehow diminishes his contributions (do you refer to Hemingway, Poe, Churchill, etc... as simply drunks, without acknowledging their contributions?)
Yes, it's well known that Hitchens drank a lot, but, whether you agree with his positions or not, his drinking certainly didn't diminish his wit or intellect in any discernible manner. He killed it in most debates.
Besides, I prefer to focus on the message, not the messanger.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly - you got my point
now reverse it. Person kills. Is it because of the person or his occupation?
Actually, I don't think I got your point because I'm not sure what it is. Let's retrace our steps...

1. I quoted (paraphrased) Hitchens as saying religion can make otherwise moral people do immoral things.

2. Your responded by calling Hitchens a drunk and I called you on that

3. Now you ask "Person kills. Is it because of the person or his occupation?". Maybe because it's humpday and my brain is a little slow today, but I'm not sure what that question has to do with the thread. In any case, my answer is that it depends.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66512 Jan 29, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
why cant religion/literature/common sense/genetic etc etc provide "reminders" for people to act morally? You are framing it as a necessary chain of absolute causation. Just because someone identifies as religions does not make them an automaton.
The problem is in the interpretation and implementation. When you base deeds on faith (belief without evidence), you could pretty much justify anything. Religion also fragments society into tribal loyalties with conflicting moral imperatives. I fail to see how this brings harmony into the world. Instead, wouldn't a better approach be a commonly understood set of humanistic values that EVERYONE shares globally that is far less open to interpretation and fragmentation?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66513 Jan 29, 2014
yehoshooah adam wrote:
<quoted text>
rabbee: organized religion - does not change the immorality, of the people involved in it. it just gives them, a pretend looking good cover story excuse.
Exactly.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66514 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I can see you have significantly greater exposure to Xtianity than to Judaism. In Xtianity, the threat of eternal damnation is held over the head of all believers. Hell awaits unrepentant sinners.
In Judaism, there is a moral imperative to make the world a better place -- tikkun olam (quite literally "heal the world"). This isn't a biblical injunction that comes with a threat of punishment but as a benefit to social harmony. The torah, indeed all Jewish scripture, is extremely vague on the subject of the afterlife, it's punishments or rewards.
rabbee: what makes any of you think, your not here in hell today? cause this is obviously not, heaven on earth today.

every time the alleged as jews, screwed up. G-D, gave them hell. and so i do not see anything different today, in alleged as judaism. since apparently not even judaism, can save itself nor anyone in it. go ahead create another religion, and see if the devils do not try to organize or reorganize it?

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66515 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Your right. But, if you're trying to convince anyone but yourself (you seem already convinced)... bring data.
rabbee: but then everyone is self considered as right, in their own self corrupted organized way.

but if G-D is never wrong, then it must be all of you pretending right.

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