Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

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Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45552
Dec 14, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
The No True Scotsman fallacy. Got any new material?
Thats always been at the core of Hughbe's tirade against Jews (Judaites/Rabbis/overlords/ Jewish Jews, etc etc...)

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/...

Explanation

The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.

Example
The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45553
Dec 14, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
US and West’s attitude always uses double standard when dealing with Muslims and Non Muslims is the one which I always complain about.
If they adhere to what they claim to be a protector of human rights and personal freedom, irrespective of the people , nation or the area involved, then we can agree to their claim.
But we see that their attitude is totally different when the nations “violating” these rights be Muslims or when they be “Non Muslims”.
We saw what happened in Burma recently, but beyond saying “Oh! How disgusting”….the issue was forgotten. And we see how West reacted to the “crisis” in Sudan and got the country divided (they may try the same solution for Egypt and Syria is not far off).
We see the problems in Kashmir, but no one in the world seem to know about it.
If that double standard was not used, may be things would be different in the world today.
I have access to Internet if that is what you mean, but most of “pornographic” sites are filtered out!!
Interesting response, but how does it support your contention that Syria has no WMDs?

The reason people in the west are focused on WMDs is because there are mean people out there (that say they are muslim) who profess a desire to use these weapons against the west. So why should it be a suprise that the west is therefore focused on crumbling nation states that possess WMDs? Syria is widely acknowledged as having the larget Soviet Era stockpile of WMDS. Of course, it has our attention.

I am glad you have access to the internet. Why dont you ever use google before you post?

Why do you need a porno filter? Cant you just be trusted not to google porn sites?
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45554
Dec 14, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
01. When discussing historical matters, people do draw erroneous conclusions. The same problem we have in India where Extreme Hindus see 1000 years of Muslim rule “as a dark night of killing Hindus and burning their temples and looting their property”….. the fact that “most of that was discovered when British came to India” seems immaterial.
Same is the case with Jews, but do you investigate why they were persecuted by every one?
If Jews were known for Honesty, Justice, Speaking Truth and Leading a Moral lives, then one could agree that “forces of falsehood” are always wary of those holding the banner of truth and justice and persecute them.
If Jewish historians themselves tell that Jews were persecuted “only because” of their moral attitude, then I can agree that their persecution by Christians and Muslims was unjustified.
But when that is not the case, we should use our intelligence and try to find out why they were persecuted?
There is a huge amount of historical analyses available. Some of it is easily accessed by google.

Many western universities have departments or subgroups devoted to ethnic studies and/or holocaust studies which examine this very question.

Most of the views converge on the notion that Jews and other minoroties are selected out for scapegoating, and/or to focus the masses away from the more pressing problems of their society, and/or so that the dominant group can feel more superior.

If you do not accept my word, go ahead - find this out on your own.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45555
Dec 14, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
03. Your advice that I study more Western News is good, I do read it and post some of them from time to time.
Only thing is that when I post it, most people do not like it.
You need to learn to filter out the credible sources from the non credible sources.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45556
Dec 14, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
02. About Media in western country, much has been written, but any one investigating it, will find that Jews have much more influence in Media than their population can justify.
You can blame Muslims that why they did not match Jews on media owner ship, but that will not justify their dominance on Western Media.
And the way they use that pressure is best seen during Presidential Elections.
If US is a democracy, why any US President should “Vow” to ensure Security and Safety of Isreal? I do not know any other “democracy” in the world where the Presidential candidates “compete with each other” as to who will give “More support” to a far distant country?
Do you not see this as strange? How come Safety and Security of Isreal became a “central issue” on which US Presidential Elections are fought?
It shows that “Minds of US people” have been programmed to see US and Isreal as two sides of the same coin.
Israel, unlike the other nations in the middle east, has proven to be a stable ally. Its that simple.

Hollywood is not controlled by the Jews, neither is the rest of the media. In past posts, it has been clear you do not undersatnd how our society operates.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#45559
Dec 14, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Israel, unlike the other nations in the middle east, has proven to be a stable ally. Its that simple.
Hollywood is not controlled by the Jews, neither is the rest of the media. In past posts, it has been clear you do not undersatnd how our society operates.
rabbee: why is, he. so ignoring the foriegn aid and support, given to muslem countries? and with a blind eye, only sees what is being given to ysrael?

were even now, sending troops and patriot missle batteries to turkey. because of the threat of the civil war in syria, spilling over into turkey.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45562
Dec 14, 2012
 

Judged:

1

Huggy

I accept your surrender on the items left unanswered.

There is no dishonor in admitting you have come up against a better man.

Remain shiny and radiant.

And, if you have weekends in Jamaica, have a good one!

former res

Since: Aug 11

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#45563
Dec 14, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats always been at the core of Hughbe's tirade against Jews (Judaites/Rabbis/overlords/ Jewish Jews, etc etc...)
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/...
Explanation
The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about.
Example
The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.
If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:
(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.
Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.
This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.
100:1 odds it's all over Huggy's head.

Since: Aug 11

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#45564
Dec 14, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
That was a crazy thing for him (a religious nut) to say to an atheist.
Big brass ones.
He clearly has no sense of irony.
He's just projecting. Best to keep your interactions with Huggy short and sweet, lest you get caught up in his circular babble.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45566
Dec 14, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
He's just projecting. Best to keep your interactions with Huggy short and sweet, lest you get caught up in his circular babble.
exactly!
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45567
Dec 14, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
100:1 odds it's all over Huggy's head.
I wouldnt say its over his head, I would say it is besides his head - i.e. willful ignorance issue not intelligence issue

His entire ideology is based upon replacement theology - He as a Christian is stepping in to inherit the role that Jews were supposed to play before they bungled it.

To construct the narrative you have to construct a bungling. Some of the is easy - just daisy pick passages from the bible - the Israelites were pros at bungling....But the more difficult part involves constructing the No True Scotts portion of it. That requires energy to maintain a facade against cognititive dissonance.(I.E. Jews/Rabbis/Overlord have to be evil/impure/liers, even as they act as normal human beings. Or he would have no reason to replace them )
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45568
Dec 14, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I wouldnt say its over his head, I would say it is besides his head - i.e. willful ignorance issue not intelligence issue
His entire ideology is based upon replacement theology - He as a Christian is stepping in to inherit the role that Jews were supposed to play before they bungled it.
To construct the narrative you have to construct a bungling. Some of the is easy - just daisy pick passages from the bible - the Israelites were pros at bungling....But the more difficult part involves constructing the No True Scotts portion of it. That requires energy to maintain a facade against cognititive dissonance.(I.E. Jews/Rabbis/Overlord have to be evil/impure/liers, even as they act as normal human beings. Or he would have no reason to replace them )
That went totally over MY head!

But that's ok - it's way too late for me to become a biblical scholar.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45569
Dec 14, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
He's just projecting. Best to keep your interactions with Huggy short and sweet, lest you get caught up in his circular babble.
I enjoy seeing his silly replies.

But life will go on just fine.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45570
Dec 14, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
That went totally over MY head!
But that's ok - it's way too late for me to become a biblical scholar.
You get his basic argument, right?

That the only TRUE Jew is a Huggy type Christian?

Ok lets get into slightly more detail

The major difference between the replacement theologists and other evangelicists is that the replacement theoligists want to "replace" Jewish identity with Christian identity and still call it Jewish.

While the other Chirstians let Jews be as they are, and just proclaim themselves as Christians as the more evolved group.

Note Huggy rarely calls himself Christian. Rather he sees himself as the "one true Jew".

If you got that I can go into his two lines of "evidence".
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45571
Dec 14, 2012
 

Judged:

1

former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I enjoy seeing his silly replies.
But life will go on just fine.
Baiting is an art. And an amusement.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45573
Dec 14, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
That went totally over MY head!
But that's ok - it's way too late for me to become a biblical scholar.
His two lines of "evidence" he consistently uses to back up his world view that he is among the "true jews".

1. Bible - lots of examples how the Israelites screwed up and GOd punished them. Therefore the descendents of the Israelites (me) blew our chance to be the special ones.(the fallacy is that he ignores all the times the Israelites in the bible did good things as well)

2. Evolution of the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion is manmade (controlled by rabbis/overlords - the religion is practiced by liers) and does not follow the literal scriptures. Therefore todays Jews do not deserve to be the special ones.(Fallacy being that ALL religion is manmade, and that Jews dont follow the bible literally - i.e. his baseline data for what is Judaism is wrong).

Everything he says comes back to those two points.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45574
Dec 14, 2012
 
And finally....

Evidence 1 is easy for him to find and to follow - he posts biblical quotes

Evidence 2 is a bit problematic. Because to assert it, he has to demonize Jewish people, and in the process make himself sound really silly.

Since it is obvious that Jews are not controlled by overlords, nor do we go around lying all the time, this creates congnitive dissonance. It takes mental and emotional energy for him to ignore this dissonance. Hence, he flies off the handle when you push him too much.

His outbursts are basically like the 2nd law of thermodynamics, energy naturally flows from a Higher State (Hughe keeping a straight face while experiencing and repressing cognitive dissonance) to a Lower State (yelling at us).

Being a repressed gay person doesnt help either.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45575
Dec 14, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You get his basic argument, right?
That the only TRUE Jew is a Huggy type Christian?
Ok lets get into slightly more detail
The major difference between the replacement theologists and other evangelicists is that the replacement theoligists want to "replace" Jewish identity with Christian identity and still call it Jewish.
While the other Chirstians let Jews be as they are, and just proclaim themselves as Christians as the more evolved group.
Note Huggy rarely calls himself Christian. Rather he sees himself as the "one true Jew".
If you got that I can go into his two lines of "evidence".
It sounds as though one Christian group is only a little less insulting to Jews than the other.

I get that he likes to say Jews can believe in JC. He wants to redefine what it means to be Jewish.

And that Jews don't own Judaism.

(Though I'm still not clear on why he has a problem with the ethno relious thing - only that they existed before Judaisn hence it is not THEIR religion - right?) I feel my brain beginning to ache.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45576
Dec 14, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
His two lines of "evidence" he consistently uses to back up his world view that he is among the "true jews".
1. Bible - lots of examples how the Israelites screwed up and GOd punished them. Therefore the descendents of the Israelites (me) blew our chance to be the special ones.(the fallacy is that he ignores all the times the Israelites in the bible did good things as well)
2. Evolution of the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion is manmade (controlled by rabbis/overlords - the religion is practiced by liers) and does not follow the literal scriptures. Therefore todays Jews do not deserve to be the special ones.(Fallacy being that ALL religion is manmade, and that Jews dont follow the bible literally - i.e. his baseline data for what is Judaism is wrong).
Everything he says comes back to those two points.
Ok - thanks.

so far so good.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45577
Dec 14, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
And finally....
Evidence 1 is easy for him to find and to follow - he posts biblical quotes
Evidence 2 is a bit problematic. Because to assert it, he has to demonize Jewish people, and in the process make himself sound really silly.
Since it is obvious that Jews are not controlled by overlords, nor do we go around lying all the time, this creates congnitive dissonance. It takes mental and emotional energy for him to ignore this dissonance. Hence, he flies off the handle when you push him too much.
His outbursts are basically like the 2nd law of thermodynamics, energy naturally flows from a Higher State (Hughe keeping a straight face while experiencing and repressing cognitive dissonance) to a Lower State (yelling at us).
Being a repressed gay person doesnt help either.
He sounds like a walking, talking mass of conflicting impulses.

Not an ideal way to go through life.

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