Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45161
Dec 10, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you use any "product" on your integumentay system?
I have no need for condoms.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45162
Dec 10, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You are nice lady, I am sure - but you are not a god to me.
Former--you are not a god to me.

HughBe--- When you have acquired wisdom you shall change those words.:D
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45163
Dec 10, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
RAce is an outdated concept. You need to update yourself.
Tell me, Einstein, if a Christian coverts to Judaism, marries, but doesnt have children, is that former Christian now apart of the Jewish "race" or Jewish people?
What part of ethnoreligious do you constantly not understand?
Do you realize how stupid you usually sound?
Frijoles---RAce is an OUTDATED concept

HughBe--- spoken like a deceived fool.

Tell people to stop talking about the OUTDATED concept of Jewish NOSE. There is no such thing. The BIOLOGY is outdated. The religion of the rabbis or the new GOD has taken over.

Tell those who are testing for JEWISH DNA to STOP as it will ONLY reveal the OUTDATED concept of RACE.

Since RACE is OUTDATED there is no need for YOU and your masters to speak in terms of LINEAGE. Focus on God and FORGET about being descended from Abraham. Focus on the RELIGION and not the BIOLOGY/outdated race.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45164
Dec 10, 2012
 

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HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no need for condoms.
that, in a nut shell, is the problem
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45165
Dec 10, 2012
 

Judged:

1

HughBe wrote:
HughBe-- Is this really an answer to my question above??
Of cours I've seen people talking to graves/coffins/cars/refrigerat ors etc..........power tools....so what?
HughBe wrote:
HughBe-- I am waiting for the proof.?
you first; let's be logical

look up "proving a negative' educate yourself

your turn
HughBe wrote:
HughBe-- Such an approach would reduce my mind to your level.
Former--You claim to NOT have a powerful imagination? That would be too bad.
HughBe--- Note the word REDUCE. Your ?, makes no sense.?
It should not have been a question.

do not be so easily confused
HughBe wrote:
Former--I don't understand your definition. Oxygen, food and water impart life. Photosynthesis imparts life. Cell division etc.
HughBe--- I did not expect you to grasp the concept the first time. Is FOOD a life force, in your mind??
No, of course not.

But food sustains life. Religion does not.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Am I merely physical? I'm open to other theories but haven't heard or seen anything yet to make me think otherwise.
HughBe--- on the occasions that you think, are the toughts physical? Is there SOMETHING more than the physical??
A neuroscientist would explain to you that our deepest thoughts, aspirations and emotions are merely electrically charged chemical reactions.

Fact.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Couldn't this be said of all religions, governements etc?
HughBe--- I would say NO with respect to ALL religions. Now tell me about YOUR govt. and apply my points to it.?
Please ask me a more specific question.
HughBe wrote:
HughBe--- Frijoles is a BLIND, DUMD sheep of his overlords. If he was a truth seeker and if INTELLIGENCE was there he would have SERIOUS problems with it. But birds of a feather Flock together.?
you and I disagree.

Frijoles is bright young man. A fine fellow.
HughBe wrote:
HughBe---They deride themselves. If you were not asleep most of the times you would have learnt about them.?
I am not an expert on any religion.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Doesn't this show a lack of respect for one of the oldest religions on earth? Even older than your own.
HughBe--- poor chap. Judaism today is a MODERN construct that the overlords have said not even MOSES would recognize it. You seem to have comprehension challenges.?
See above.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Nature vs nurture.
HughBe--- elaborate. In your mind, are we talking about BEHAVIOUR or intelligence??
As I recall, your question had to do with intelligence. My reponse deals with the forces that determine various human traits inc intelligence.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Yes, racism, as homophobia, is wrong.
Blaming anyone for soemthing beyound their control is wrong
HughBe--- Like Frijoles you never fail to create an opening to champion your cause i.e. HOMOSEXUALITY.
Have you critically considered the BS that you have written?
Why do you speak of "openings"?

Please tell me about the BS to which you refer.

Do you consider yourself to be homophobic?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45166
Dec 10, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
RAce is an outdated concept. You need to update yourself.
Tell me, Einstein, if a Christian coverts to Judaism, marries, but doesnt have children, is that former Christian now apart of the Jewish "race" or Jewish people?
What part of ethnoreligious do you constantly not understand?
Do you realize how stupid you usually sound?
Did God make a covenant with the JEWS?

Did the Jews have an EXISTENCE as Jews at the time of the covenant with God?

If not who did God make the covenant with?

What is your TWISTED definition of an Israelite?

Other outstanding matters.

1.List the ethnic groups in the US.

2. The Jews who do not speak OUR language are they "apart" or "a part" of OUR ethnic group?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45167
Dec 10, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
that, in a nut shell, is the problem
It is not a problem, the NUTS are safe.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45168
Dec 10, 2012
 
HughBe-- Is this really an answer to my question above??

Former--Of cours I've seen people talking to graves/coffins/cars/refrigerat ors etc..........power tools....so what?

HughBe-- So it is not an unheard of thing as you previously made it out to be.

HughBe-- I am waiting for the proof.?

Former--you first; let's be logical

HughBe--- I understand

Former--It should not have been a question.

HughBe--- try and be coherent.

HughBe--- Is FOOD a life force, in your mind??

Fortmer--No, of course not.

HughBe-- so why the backside you mentioned it when I was speaking about life force? Confused, I see.

Former--But food sustains life. Religion does not.

HughBe-- You would be surprised that if there was no religion life would disappear.

Former--A neuroscientist would explain to you that our deepest thoughts, aspirations and emotions are merely electrically charged chemical reactions.

HughBe-- do you believe this?

Former--Please ask me a more specific question.

HughBe -- forget it, I would have to go back.

Former---Frijoles is bright young man. A fine fellow.

HughBe--- Indeed he is a fellow.

Former--I am not an expert on any religion.

HughBe--- So look and learn

Former-- My reponse deals with the forces that determine various human traits inc intelligence.

HughBe-- using your quote specify the words that support your current claim.

Former--Why do you speak of "openings"?

HughBe--- I spoke about CREATING an opening.

Former--Do you consider yourself to be homophobic?

HughBe--- I Consider and KNOW that the word homophobic is very much like the activities i.e. a PERVERSION of nature and TRUTH.

Learn this, PHOBIA is an IRRATIONAL FEAR. Now PERVERTS twist the meaning to suit their NASTY ways.

I have no fear of homosexuals and I do not dislike them but their sexual activities are WRONG.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45171
Dec 10, 2012
 

Judged:

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HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Frijoles---RAce is an OUTDATED concept
HughBe--- spoken like a deceived fool.
Tell people to stop talking about the OUTDATED concept of Jewish NOSE. There is no such thing. The BIOLOGY is outdated. The religion of the rabbis or the new GOD has taken over.
Tell those who are testing for JEWISH DNA to STOP as it will ONLY reveal the OUTDATED concept of RACE.
Since RACE is OUTDATED there is no need for YOU and your masters to speak in terms of LINEAGE. Focus on God and FORGET about being descended from Abraham. Focus on the RELIGION and not the BIOLOGY/outdated race.
DNA tests for relatedness -

You are going around circles again - this has been all been explained to you before. Do you have an IQ of a kindergardener? I am starting to think so.

Is Jamaican science stuck in the 1950s?
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45172
Dec 10, 2012
 

Judged:

1

HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Did God make a covenant with the JEWS?
Did the Jews have an EXISTENCE as Jews at the time of the covenant with God?
If not who did God make the covenant with?
What is your TWISTED definition of an Israelite?
Other outstanding matters.
1.List the ethnic groups in the US.
2. The Jews who do not speak OUR language are they "apart" or "a part" of OUR ethnic group?
What is OUR language? You are not Jewish so I dont know what language I have in common with you.

Which covenant? there were several. At some point, there was the creation of a Jewish PEOPLE.

Why did you become a Christian?
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#45173
Dec 10, 2012
 

Judged:

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Ten thousand posts later and you actually post something I agree with.
Judging Fan would be proud
:)
Islam teaches us to never go to extremes in any thing. Not in love or in hate.

There is nothing as pure white or pure black...most things are grey in nature.

That is why when I see some one proving someone to be angel or devil, I get alarmed.

But many people would only use hyperbole language on these threads.

Alhamdolillah I try not to be amongst them.
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

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#45174
Dec 10, 2012
 

Judged:

1

Which “Sword” the Prophet Used against his enemies: Part-4

Enemies of Islam represent our prophet as a very cruel and blood thirsty man, who would kill his “opponents, enemies and any one who disagreed with him” at “the drop of hat” and all his adversaries would be “terrified” at the mere sight of him.

The picture is far from true, let us look at some incidents from the life of prophet, as what was “this sword which killed the enmity for ever”

The Case of :‘AMR BIN AUS BIN WAEL

A. Early History:

Amr bin Aus is another Military and Administrative genius of early Muslims. He was from the SAHM clan of Makkah. His father was a very rich and influential tribal chief of Makkah. He held the position of “settling disputes” amongst people and clans.

When prophet declared his mission, his father opposed the message with his full might. He was one of the bitterest critic of prophet and many verse in Quran depict his spiteful nature.

Amr followed his father in opposing Islam, but one of his brother accepted Islam in the very beginning. He was forced to migrate to Abyssinia when torture of Makkans broke all bounds.

Makkan dispatched Amr as head of mission to get the fugitives back from Abyssinia, his mission was unsuccessful, but it shows his position and resourcefulness to take such missions.

Amr fought against prophet as part of Makkan army, though we do not find much information about his parts in the hostilities.

B. How did prophet “slay” him:

After treaty of Hudaibiyah, Amr started thinking about Islam and its message, the more he thought about it, the more reasonable it looked. Untill he decided to go to Medina and become a Muslim.

He left Makkah for Medina and on the way, met Khalid bin Waleed and Othman bin Talha, and found that they also had same purpose. On seeing them in Medina prophet told “Makkah has sent his Jewels to you”!!

Amr told prophet that he want to have a pledge of Islam on the hands of prophet. When prophet put forward his hands Amr withdrew his!!

“What is this Amr” prophet asked

“I want to have a condition” said Amr

“What is it” Asked prophet

“I have fought many battles against you, I want you to assure me that Allah with forgive my past sins” said Amr

“Don’t you know, Amr, that Islam demolishes all sins before it?” Said the prophet and he took the pledge.

C. After becoming Muslim:

Prophet used his military genius and negotiating skills, by sending him to many important and secret missions. Prophet used to trust him very much and used many praiseworthy words about him.

On the part of Amr, he said “I was so ashamed of my past behaviour, that I never once looked prophet with full looks after I became Muslim, If some one asks me, how he looked, I will not be able to describe him”

After death of Prophet, Abu Bakr the First Caliph, used Amr bin Aus in many battles inside Arabia. He made him Commander of the Army that was sent to Capture Palestine. Amr bin Aus captured all important cities of Palestine and was present in the conquest of Damascus and Jerusalem.

D. Amr bin Aus and Capture of Egypt:

It is his greatest achievement, that with a army of only four thousand soldiers, he single handedly captured the whole of Egypt, Sudan and went right upto the borders of Morocco, Algeria and Tunis.

Many volumes could be written about his military genius and skills as to how he captured such a vast country with so little resources.

Later he was made Governor of Egypt by Omar, the second Caliph and he ruled that country with good skills and was very popular with the local population.

He lived many years after prophet and died during the Caliphate of Muavia.

Such was Amr bin Aus, one of the Victim of “Sword of our prophet!!”

Source: Companions of Prophet: by Talib Hashmi
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45175
Dec 10, 2012
 

Judged:

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HughBe wrote:
Former--Of cours I've seen people talking to graves/coffins/cars/refrigerat ors etc..........power tools....so what?
HughBe-- So it is not an unheard of thing as you previously made it out to be.
Show me where I said that.

I said one can talk to anything, like a rock. Doesn't mean anyone can hear you.

Creating imaginary friends and beings can also be a sign of mental illness.

If you were to tell a shrink that your relative was speaking to an imaginary friend, he might suspect illness.

If one imagine that friend talking back, that would pretty well seal the diagnosis.
HughBe wrote:
Former--But food sustains life. Religion does not.
HughBe-- You would be surprised that if there was no religion life would disappear.
I'm willing to give it a try.
HughBe wrote:
Former--A neuroscientist would explain to you that our deepest thoughts, aspirations and emotions are merely electrically charged chemical reactions.
HughBe-- do you believe this?
It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of science.

Only you folks require faith for your beliefs.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Please ask me a more specific question.
HughBe -- forget it, I would have to go back.
Next time, ask a better question up front.
HughBe wrote:
Former--I am not an expert on any religion.
HughBe--- So look and learn
Are you going to tell me a fairy tale?

Let me go get my special blanky and slippers.

I love a good bedtime story.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Do you consider yourself to be homophobic?
HughBe--- I Consider and KNOW that the word homophobic is very much like the activities i.e. a PERVERSION of nature and TRUTH.
Learn this, PHOBIA is an IRRATIONAL FEAR. Now PERVERTS twist the meaning to suit their NASTY ways. I have no fear of homosexuals and I do not dislike them but their sexual activities are WRONG.
I'll take that as a yes.

Try opening up your heart to those who are different from you.

You will recieve many gifts.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#45180
Dec 11, 2012
 

Judged:

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Where's the gay Jamaican with the nice skin?

At least I found a recent picture.

http://www.queerty.com/wp/docs/2009/09/jesusj...
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45181
Dec 11, 2012
 

Judged:

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MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
01. There have been Jewish and Christian presence in Muslim countries since the very beginning. No one can deny this fact.
But they were living under Muslim rule and carrying on with their lives.
02. There was never any war between Muslims and Jews (which we call as a war), till Jews started this "Zionist movement" around 1900.
To get support from "Jews living in Arab lands" to such an Idea is possible and probable and so many incidents could be cited from every group.
The situation changed radically, when Britain got its "toe-hold" in Arab lands after end of WW-1.
Muslim persecution of Jews in Arab countries pre-1900

Traditionally Jews living in Muslim lands, known as dhimmis, were allowed to practice their religion and to administer their internal affairs but subject to certain conditions.[8] They had to pay the jizya (a per capita tax imposed on free adult non-Muslim males) to Muslims.[9] Dhimmis had an inferior status under Islamic rule. They had several social and legal disabilities such as prohibitions against bearing arms or giving testimony in courts in cases involving Muslims.[10] Contrary to popular belief, the Quran did not allow Muslims to force Jews to wear distinctive clothing. Obadyah the Proselyte reported in 1100 AD, that the Caliph had created this rule himself:

In Moorish Spain, ibn Hazm and Abu Ishaq focused their anti-Jewish writings on the latter allegation. This was also the chief motivation behind the 1066 Granada massacre, when "[m]ore than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day",[11] and in Fez in 1033, when 6,000 Jews were killed.[12] There were further massacres in Fez in 1276 and 1465.[13]

The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when a French monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city including children who were tortured. The consuls of England, France and Germany as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.[14] Following the Damascus affair, Pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa. Pogroms occurred in: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874).[15] There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.[12] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[12]

In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. This is known as the Allahdad incident. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_J...
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45182
Dec 11, 2012
 
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/a... (gen).html

Violence Against Jews

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.(6)

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7)

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).(8)

As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.(9)

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.(10)
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45183
Dec 11, 2012
 

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MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
05. That is why I said that if Isreal wants to show its sincerity to peace and stability, it must vacate all Arab lands it occupied after 1948 declaration of Independence.
You say "majority" in Isreal want peace, I doubt if even 1 % of Israeli people would "agree" to go back to 1948 boundaries? Most even might not even know what were its 1948 boundaries!!
MUQ, the Arabs themselves did not accept the 48 lines. Why would the Arabs accept them now?

HOw can you realistically expect a country to negotiate against another people who publically DAILY express their desire to throw their foes into the sea?
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45184
Dec 11, 2012
 

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MUQ

Consider the above the fact check to your rhetoric of "Jews always have lived peacefully under Arab rule until those Zionists came and screwed it up for everybody"

Arab and Muslims HAVE ALWAYS displayed intolerance for Jews (and probably anyone else other than Arabs or Muslims).

Your error is that you think history started with in 1880s or 1948. Sorry, it isnt so. You are creating a scapegoat to rationalize a long term behavior of intolerance.

Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45185
Dec 11, 2012
 
MUQ aka my Judging Fan,

You missed one of my posts

Please judge it

WE would hate to think you are getting sloppy
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#45189
Dec 11, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/a... (gen).html
Violence Against Jews
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.(6)
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7)
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).(8)
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.(9)
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.(10)
rabbee: boy is that sure is a lot of crap, that wouldn't of happened. had this whole world been true to HaShem G-D here in TheStory of Creation again. that always results, in Adam being put to death, and returned as adam and his mate.

kind of makes you wonder, what really would have happened. had this whole world been true to G-D, here in ThisStory of Creation all along.

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