Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Frijoles

Madison, CT

#44877 Dec 5, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
It is too early to be blunt with you and to describe you. Note, I hardly make judgments on posts and when I do it is the FUNNY icon.
I am having problems grasping your inability to understand my words especially the FUNNY word given that you are "funny"
By the way, I have not read your post but tell me how is at odds with what I have been saying?
Dont take it personally.

Even better. It is MUQ who professes to limit his postings to once a day, but obviously lurks around more often in a classic case of passive aggressive behavior...

All advertising is good advertising. I like fans. Makes me feel loved.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44878 Dec 5, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Truth be it, I was briefly a member of that congregation a long time ago. Their members are every bit as liberal as their leaders. And their leaders are unquestionably supportive of Israel.
Most of the comments seemed to be in support. Most of the unsupportive comments were from the usual rightwing playbook. A few unsupportive comments though were from the pragmatic camp (i.e. "its nice to do the kumbaya thing but ya gotta know that people in the middle east are mean and nasty...").
Personally, I am more in the pragmatic camp but I also realize that for a real peace inititiave to start it has to originate boldly - and that stand was definitely bold. It might encourage more voices.
As it's only the 5th of the month, and I'm already up to click 5 of my free 10 monthly NYT clicks, I'd better not re-open the link/NYT aticle you posted....but....

I thought the whole point of the article was how outraged the congregants were over the letter signed by the congregation leaders in support of the UN decision re: Palestine's new status.

No, not every single congregant was outraged, but it sure gave the impression that was the general reaction.

I have no doubt that anyone there is not supportive of Israel. I guess the point to me was how supportive they are of the rights of Palestine. Like letting the Nazis march in Skokie (or wherever), it's a true test of liberalism and a groups or peoples' rights.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44879 Dec 5, 2012
HughBe wrote:
Former--What makes YOU think your words are true. Is it just a feeling you have?
HughBe--- The same way that YOU know when you speak truth.
I do not claim to speak the truth, cetainly not about things I do not know.

That is the difference between you and me.

Do not compare your thought process to mine. We clearly have different standards for what we consider "true."

I will say I like ice cream. That I know for a fact.

But I will not claim to know who made the universe. That I do not know. And neither do you.
HughBe wrote:

Former---Do ever think you might be arrogant?
HughBe-- NO
Usually a sure sign of arrogance. Thanks for confirming.
HughBe wrote:

HughBe--- Pay close attention to my words. The seed was sown from childhood. I left religion in early adulthood and in about 2007 I made the DECISION to take a look at religion once more. So, I started to study the bible and I was convinced that it is indeed reliable and the word of God.
What other religions did you check into before randomly choosing one?

What if you read The Koran first and found that instantly convincing to you?

What makes you think God wrote the bible?
HughBe wrote:

I embrace the tanach and the NT and as a result I find that I am often at odds with both Christianity and Judaism. Both groups have their man-made BS but more so Judaism and a sect of Christianity called Catholicism.
Do you not see Judaism as the foundation of Christianity?

How do you distinguish man-made from god-made religion?

Didn't god make man, in your view?
HughBe wrote:

Finally, those religions that speak about reincarnation has NEVER made any sense to me for two reasons it cannot be proven and I cannot relate to the experience personally.
Nothing you believe can be proven and yet you still believe in it, so why draw the line at reincarnation?

It seems a bit arbitrary.
HughBe wrote:

HughBe--- I thank you for your definition of FAITH. Now PROVE your BELIEF. You cannot and that is the classical definition of FAITH. YES you have FAITH or a BELIEF without PROOF.
I have no beliefs in the sense that you do, so I have nothing to prove.

All you seem to have is a warm, fuzzy feeling inside of you. Not too convincing.
HughBe wrote:

HughBe--- I say it took INTELLIGENCE to have MADE the laws etc. I assume that YOU believe that no intelligence was needed or required. That is ok. Recall you have agreed that they were MADE.
Why do you assume what I believe?

I don't have all the answers and I admit it.
HughBe wrote:

HughBe--- I accept that "Pigs treat us(YOU) as equals" and that you "try to be one with the world(PIGS)" but your words are NOT applicable to me.
I never said my words were applicable to you.

I wouldn't presume.

Do you think you are superior to a pig?
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44880 Dec 5, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
bye Frijoles. Will be back in a couple of hours.
you didn't say good-bye to me, you baxtard!!
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#44881 Dec 5, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
We would have left you out, if you would have not have "come back" to derive people out who were living there for close to 1200 years.
Your took all your ethnic roots with you, when you cleared that land with your bag and baggage 2000 years back.
I "know" what that "Arab Homeland next to yours" you are talking about? It is NOT your land at all!! It is the land (well a small part of ) which was captured in 1967 war.
Do you think, you can pull the wool over every one's eyes by agreeing to that "so called tiny Palestinian state" with no army, no police and no industry?.
What about lands which Israel captured in 1948, 1956 and 1967?.
If you are "sincere" in peace, you should first withdraw to 1948 borders and then talk about any peace.
"Pushing the Jews into sea" might be one solution, but I hope that things do not come to that level.
First you deal with your "little" problem of HAMAS and HIZBOLLAH and then you worry about Neo- Islamic Nationalism.
PS:
And Jews did not originate from Palestine, their roots are elsewhere and not in Palestine.
rabbee: well who do you think, is going to win your war against G-D? because you don't think that, all land, and dirt belongs to G-D. and that it is only G-D'S, to give and take. and only yours to mentally lust for, with your mental coveting techniques.

and do you really expect any peace, in this whole world fighting against G-D? as i cannot find one person on earth, that is not an enemy of G-D.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#44882 Dec 5, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
I have provided answer to Mr. Frijoles.
Now coming to you, since we are the party whose land is taken away, we have EVERY right in the world to look at that "Mysterious Covenant".
I know NUTTY and CORRUPT men are the problem, and do you know what? MOST of these NUTTY and CORRUP men are from Jews and Christians and not so many from our side!!
So do not evade the issue, please bring out in public view, what is that Covenant, based on which you are claiming "permanent Title" to a certain land, which was "Never" in your control except for short burst of time.
This is not the type of Covenant which Lord Almighty makes with His Chosen people and Chosen race.
There is something black at the bottom!!
rabbee: TheL-RD, giveth and TheL-RD taketh away. and all you can do, is scream unfair? only when it, is being taken away.

because all you and your petty other g-ds, do not believe your not in charge here.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#44883 Dec 5, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
As it's only the 5th of the month, and I'm already up to click 5 of my free 10 monthly NYT clicks, I'd better not re-open the link/NYT aticle you posted....but....
I thought the whole point of the article was how outraged the congregants were over the letter signed by the congregation leaders in support of the UN decision re: Palestine's new status.
No, not every single congregant was outraged, but it sure gave the impression that was the general reaction.
I have no doubt that anyone there is not supportive of Israel. I guess the point to me was how supportive they are of the rights of Palestine. Like letting the Nazis march in Skokie (or wherever), it's a true test of liberalism and a groups or peoples' rights.
"It was not immediately clear how widespread opposition to the rabbis’ e-mail has been within the congregation, but Mr. Ripp said he had been inundated with messages from people upset about the rabbis’ statement, and some members had posted comments online and circulated e-mails expressing concern.

But others supported the action..."

Controversy makes good news. Also, it wouldnt suprise me if at least 1 NYTimes editor/reporter belonged there as well. Its a large and extermely well known congregation.

In general, the clergy there are famous for being in the front of human rights issues.(if I recollect, one of them might have served time in an Argetinian prison in their youth) When they speak, people listen. That is news in itself.

----
I was prevented from accessing a Wall Street Journal article yesterday for the same reason.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44884 Dec 5, 2012
former res wrote:
Sure, "beauty, order, laws are all made" - I agree.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Why make the assumption that they are "all made"?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is not evidence for a creator or that something is "made".

Order and patterns can arise from disorder as chaos theory clearly shows us. A die rolled multiple times to simulate randomness will eventually show patterns of consecutive numbers. Naturally occurring attractive forces (strong force, weak force, electro-magnetic force)brings matter together. Given infinite or very large space-time, and complex patterns of matter become inevitable amongst the randomness.

Laws of physics (classical and quantum)governing matter, energy and forces is where we'll find answers to questions, not in the concept of a "creator" as a necessity for the existence of complex things.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#44885 Dec 5, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
you didn't say good-bye to me, you baxtard!!
What can i say...I remind him of his livestock...

(speaking of livestock, where is ATF?)

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44886 Dec 5, 2012
HughBe wrote:
Finally, those religions that speak about reincarnation has NEVER made any sense to me for two reasons it cannot be proven and I cannot relate to the experience personally.
Funny. That's partially why I reject all religions, including yours. None of them can be proven. The best argument you have is full of logical fallacies, just like every other religion. Sorry to be blunt about it, but you're not special. Your religion is not special.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44887 Dec 5, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
"It was not immediately clear how widespread opposition to the rabbis’ e-mail has been within the congregation, but Mr. Ripp said he had been inundated with messages from people upset about the rabbis’ statement, and some members had posted comments online and circulated e-mails expressing concern.
But others supported the action..."
Controversy makes good news. Also, it wouldnt suprise me if at least 1 NYTimes editor/reporter belonged there as well. Its a large and extermely well known congregation.
In general, the clergy there are famous for being in the front of human rights issues.(if I recollect, one of them might have served time in an Argetinian prison in their youth) When they speak, people listen. That is news in itself.
----
I was prevented from accessing a Wall Street Journal article yesterday for the same reason.
True that. The media would want to focus on the discord. That's really the news. Magnify whatever outrage there is.

Where is that place? Wasn't it Upper West Side? You went into the city for services? Good for you.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44888 Dec 5, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Why make the assumption that they are "all made"?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is not evidence for a creator or that something is "made".
Order and patterns can arise from disorder as chaos theory clearly shows us. A die rolled multiple times to simulate randomness will eventually show patterns of consecutive numbers. Naturally occurring attractive forces (strong force, weak force, electro-magnetic force)brings matter together. Given infinite or very large space-time, and complex patterns of matter become inevitable amongst the randomness.
Laws of physics (classical and quantum)governing matter, energy and forces is where we'll find answers to questions, not in the concept of a "creator" as a necessity for the existence of complex things.
Fair enough.

Though this may be a matter of semantics.(Not that I'm anti-semantic!:))

Seriously though, when I agree with "made," I really doubt Huggybear and I mean the same thing.

He assumed I meant a creator but I don't think that necessarily follows.

If the earth were "made" during a big bang, that to me doesn't imply a creator (per se) was at work.

Though when believers argue that "something can't come from nothing," - on a basic scientific level, I can't really argue with them - can you?

This could all be very random as you say, and I suspect it is - but still, somehow it got made. And out of something.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44889 Dec 5, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
What can i say...I remind him of his livestock...
(speaking of livestock, where is ATF?)
Maybe the non-existent government finally caught up with him.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44890 Dec 5, 2012
former res wrote:
Fair enough.
Though this may be a matter of semantics.(Not that I'm anti-semantic!:))
Seriously though, when I agree with "made," I really doubt Huggybear and I mean the same thing.
He assumed I meant a creator but I don't think that necessarily follows.
If the earth were "made" during a big bang, that to me doesn't imply a creator (per se) was at work.
Sounds like you were more talking cause and effect.
former res wrote:
Though when believers argue that "something can't come from nothing," - on a basic scientific level, I can't really argue with them - can you?
Saying that atheists believe something came from nothing is a straw argument perpetuated by religious apologists. Never mind the fact that "nothing" is more a concept than a reality. In reality, there is no "nothing". Even empty space has quantum fluctuations with quantum particles seemingly coming into and out of existence. The fact is, matter and energy could have always existed. There could be any number of explanations for the big bang ranging from it being a cyclical event or it could have been the result of different dimensions colliding. Who knows? Surely not the religionists.
former res wrote:
This could all be very random as you say, and I suspect it is - but still, somehow it got made. And out of something.
Again, I think your talking cause and effect. As far as energy and quantum particles is concerned, why did it have to be made? Why can't it be that it just always existed. Carl Sagan said it pretty well in the following video...

http://youtu.be/Ag6fH8cU-MU
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44891 Dec 5, 2012
Can Something Come from Nothing?

http://commonsenseatheism.com/...

I think they're saying no, but I'm not sure.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#44892 Dec 5, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
True that. The media would want to focus on the discord. That's really the news. Magnify whatever outrage there is.
Where is that place? Wasn't it Upper West Side? You went into the city for services? Good for you.
There was a time when most of my social life revolved around the city. Yes, UWS. They create the BEST music in that place. And was(still is?) a singles place. That's its other reputation - music and singles.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44893 Dec 5, 2012
former res wrote:
Can Something Come from Nothing?
http://commonsenseatheism.com/...
I think they're saying no, but I'm not sure.
Yep. Again, it's a straw argument. Don't fall into that trap when discussing the matter with an apologist.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44895 Dec 5, 2012
Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?

Short answer: Why not?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvaria...
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44896 Dec 5, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
Sounds like you were more talking cause and effect.
I don't know exactly how you mean this.

But I do like to point out the difference between causation and correlation (or association), a conflation I see often.
Cult of Reason wrote:
Saying that atheists believe something came from nothing is a straw argument perpetuated by religious apologists.
It certainly is a straw man with this man.(That being me!)
Cult of Reason wrote:
Never mind the fact that "nothing" is more a concept than a reality. In reality, there is no "nothing". Even empty space has quantum fluctuations with quantum particles seemingly coming into and out of existence. The fact is, matter and energy could have always existed. There could be any number of explanations for the big bang ranging from it being a cyclical event or it could have been the result of different dimensions colliding. Who knows? Surely not the religionists. Again, I think your talking cause and effect. As far as energy and quantum particles is concerned, why did it have to be made? Why can't it be that it just always existed. Carl Sagan said it pretty well in the following video...
http://youtu.be/Ag6fH8cU-MU
Couldn't agree with Carl more.

The origin of all this is definitely unknown and likely unknowable. People like you and me can live with that. Others cannot it seems.

One of my pet peeves in life (along with non-blinker-using lane changers) is people who state something authoritatively while being WRONG. Basically I never belive them again.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#44897 Dec 5, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?
Short answer: Why not?
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvaria...
Yeah, he says maybe not even the right question.

Fascinating what the 'ole googler turns up.

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