Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72042 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44722 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, so looking on a map, I'm guessing that has to do with its location on the edge of the West Bank?
Wiki says "East Jerusalem" in in the West Bank.
"The United States views as desirable the establishing of an international regime for the city.[32] Its final status must be resolved through negotiations[33] and it does not recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.[34]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jer...
The above quotes candidate Obama's saying otherwise.
Sounds complicated, to say the least.
Wars have been fought over this

From 1948 to 1967 - a portion of Jerusalem (Now called East Jerusalem) was occupied and adminstered by Jordan - including the Old City. The Six Day War (1967) liberated the Old City (with the Jewish Holy sites such as the Western wall) from Jordan.

West Jerusalem has always been in Israeli control since 1948. West Jerusalem is a vibrant modern urban city. East Jerusalem, including the Old City, is of more ancient historical significance. Both the East and West are "Jerusalem".

It is a no brainer to give portions of East Jerusalem to the Palestinians since most of the population is Arab there anywhere. But in the middle of it are Jewish neighborhoods (some that have been there for thousands of years) and the Jewish Holy sites. If Isreal trusted the outside world (which it has no reason to do) it could conceivable internationalize the Holy sites as its own city (like the Vatican)- but prgamatiically that will never happen.

Complicating all of this is the fact that most surveys of Israeli Arabs living in Jerusalem indicate no interest in joining a Palestinian state - they know a good thing when they see it (Israeli citizenship with all its benefits vs a fledging, corrupt, and probably theocreatic Palestinian state). Its the Palestinians from the West Bank proper who want Jerusalem, as well as the Muslims like MUQ who dont have to live there.

West Jerusalem is a modern Israeli city. East Jerusalem The Old City - where the Western Wall is (Jewish Holy site) is
former res

Broomall, PA

#44723 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

West Jerusalem is a modern Israeli city. East Jerusalem The Old City - where the Western Wall is (Jewish Holy site) is
Thanks much for the primer.

Why, way back when, didn't the original borders of Israel (by the UN) include the West and East of the city?

Was any of this territory part of the "land swaps" discussion?

I googled "land swaps" and the results are dizzying.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#44724 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks much for the primer.
Why, way back when, didn't the original borders of Israel (by the UN) include the West and East of the city?
Was any of this territory part of the "land swaps" discussion?
I googled "land swaps" and the results are dizzying.
The original partition had Jerusalem as an international city. When the Arabs started the war in 1948, they immediately invaded the city. The Israeli counter-attack divided the city until 1967 war.
former res

Broomall, PA

#44725 Dec 3, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
The original partition had Jerusalem as an international city. When the Arabs started the war in 1948, they immediately invaded the city. The Israeli counter-attack divided the city until 1967 war.
Thanks.

Isn't it still divided?

Guess that's the point - depends who you ask?
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44726 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks.
Isn't it still divided?
Guess that's the point - depends who you ask?
If you walked through the areas - east and west - there is nothing that really leads you to believe that you are anywhere other than Israel. Police, fire, utilties. The people themselves speak whatever language they are rooted from (Arabic, Hebrew, plus there are Armenian Christians) but the language of local government is Hebrew.

Traditionally, the Palestinians that actually have roots in the City (not the West Bankians) are among the most educated and the strongest advocates for peace.
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44727 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Was any of this territory part of the "land swaps" discussion?
I googled "land swaps" and the results are dizzying.
Yes and No and No and No and Yes

Jerusalem is always referred to as one of the most problematic sticking points. That and the "right of return"

The right of return can be negotiated away with compensation, in theory. The problem is that so far no Palestinian leader has admitted to their people that this has to be done. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is even more of a sacred cow. Really, the only fair solution would be internationalization but the islamists cant deal with that, and the Israels are afraid of that (from a security standpoint).

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#44728 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you saying that because I cannot identify my maker that YOUR explanation of all this is the correct one?
That makes no sense whatsoever.
What evidence (not even proof)do you have that the "god" you worship is the correct one? Or even that he exists or ever did?
You have nothing. Just some old words that could have been inspired by anyone.
At least your donkey friend is real.
Weak. Argument from Incredulity / Argument from Ignorance. It's a logical fallacy. We've covered this before with your donkey loving friend. As you correctly pointed out, "god did it" is not the correct answer when you don't have an explanation from something.
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44729 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes and No and No and No and Yes
Jerusalem is always referred to as one of the most problematic sticking points. That and the "right of return"
The right of return can be negotiated away with compensation, in theory. The problem is that so far no Palestinian leader has admitted to their people that this has to be done. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is even more of a sacred cow. Really, the only fair solution would be internationalization but the islamists cant deal with that, and the Israels are afraid of that (from a security standpoint).
I forgot to add - internationalization of the OLD CITY portion of East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem is obviously Israel. And the rest of East Jerusalem (the burbs which have both Arab and Jewish neighborhoods) can be negotiated/swapped around.
former res

Broomall, PA

#44730 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes and No and No and No and Yes
Jerusalem is always referred to as one of the most problematic sticking points. That and the "right of return"
The right of return can be negotiated away with compensation, in theory. The problem is that so far no Palestinian leader has admitted to their people that this has to be done. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is even more of a sacred cow. Really, the only fair solution would be internationalization but the islamists cant deal with that, and the Israels are afraid of that (from a security standpoint).
Interesting.

I was reading about right of return and found this:

"Jews who converted to another religion can also be denied the right of return."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#...

I hope Hubbybear reads this.

It also said if I marriend Jewish girl, I'm in. Good to know. We have residents who've visited the Holy Land and really loved it.
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44731 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting.
I was reading about right of return and found this:
"Jews who converted to another religion can also be denied the right of return."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#...
I hope Hubbybear reads this.
It also said if I marriend Jewish girl, I'm in. Good to know. We have residents who've visited the Holy Land and really loved it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#...

Supporters of a Palestinian right of return argue that refugees, displaced persons, and all their descendants have a right to return and a right to property they left or were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine) as result of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War and the 1967 Six-Day war.[23]

As a rebuttal to Resolution 194 being used in support, opponents note that General Assembly resolutions are not legally binding and usually have no force as international law.[24]

Although the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights claim that the right of return to one's own country is a human right, numerous scholars have interpreted this to mean citizens or nationals of the country, as well as applying only to the individuals who were personally displaced, not to their descendants. Such an interpretation would also of course mean Jews and their descendants displaced from previously Arab countries would have no right of return.

-------
I dont get the last paragraph. I think it is error and should read "Such an interpretation would also of course mean Jewish descendants displaced from previously Arab countries would have no right of return." ??

i.e. Jews were citizens/nationals of their Arab countries - their descendents were not.

One of the sticking point of the Palestinian claim is the descendents issue. The Palestinians are the ONLY refugees granted status by the UN for their descendents. Which is why there are still UN refugee camps for Palestinians. Every other historical group has moved on with their life, unfairly or fairly....

Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44732 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting.
I was reading about right of return and found this:
"Jews who converted to another religion can also be denied the right of return."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#...
I hope Hubbybear reads this.
It also said if I marriend Jewish girl, I'm in. Good to know. We have residents who've visited the Holy Land and really loved it.
Its more complicated I think these days. Your spouse has to be recognized as a Jew by the Israeli rabbinate I think. The Israeli rabbinate is nuts.(Rightwing and corrupt).
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44733 Dec 3, 2012
I stand corrected

"....Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes.

According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Charedi citizens of Israel generally do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship.

Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew".*

http://ask.metafilter.com/138371/How-can-I-be...
former res

Broomall, PA

#44734 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#...
Supporters of a Palestinian right of return argue that refugees, displaced persons, and all their descendants have a right to return and a right to property they left or were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine) as result of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War and the 1967 Six-Day war.[23]
As a rebuttal to Resolution 194 being used in support, opponents note that General Assembly resolutions are not legally binding and usually have no force as international law.[24]
Although the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights claim that the right of return to one's own country is a human right, numerous scholars have interpreted this to mean citizens or nationals of the country, as well as applying only to the individuals who were personally displaced, not to their descendants. Such an interpretation would also of course mean Jews and their descendants displaced from previously Arab countries would have no right of return.
-------
I dont get the last paragraph. I think it is error and should read "Such an interpretation would also of course mean Jewish descendants displaced from previously Arab countries would have no right of return." ??
i.e. Jews were citizens/nationals of their Arab countries - their descendents were not.
One of the sticking point of the Palestinian claim is the descendents issue. The Palestinians are the ONLY refugees granted status by the UN for their descendents. Which is why there are still UN refugee camps for Palestinians. Every other historical group has moved on with their life, unfairly or fairly....
It does look like a mistake. Would have to go to the source material.

I've corrected mistakes I've found on Wiki. They'll let your correction stand if you make a note of your rationale in the edit commentary.

Sometimes it's on obvious error, other times you need a source - but the source they're already using may to do the trick.
former res

Broomall, PA

#44735 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its more complicated I think these days. Your spouse has to be recognized as a Jew by the Israeli rabbinate I think. The Israeli rabbinate is nuts.(Rightwing and corrupt).
No, I understand.

They won't just take our word for it.

Try moving to Canada too.

They have standards.
former res

Broomall, PA

#44736 Dec 3, 2012
Is this a wise move?

__________

By NBC News staff and wire services

TEL AVIV -- Israel faced sharp criticism Monday from several European governments over its decision to expand settlement building in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem following U.N. de facto recognition of Palestinian statehood.

In London, the British government summoned the Israeli ambassador to express disapproval of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's decision.

"We deplore the recent Israeli government decision to build 3,000 new housing units and unfreeze development in the E1 block (of East Jerusalem). This threatens the viability of the two-state solution," Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office said in a statement.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03...
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44738 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
Is this a wise move?
__________
By NBC News staff and wire services
TEL AVIV -- Israel faced sharp criticism Monday from several European governments over its decision to expand settlement building in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem following U.N. de facto recognition of Palestinian statehood.
In London, the British government summoned the Israeli ambassador to express disapproval of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's decision.
"We deplore the recent Israeli government decision to build 3,000 new housing units and unfreeze development in the E1 block (of East Jerusalem). This threatens the viability of the two-state solution," Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office said in a statement.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03...
Consider it like the opening of a bargaining position.

I dont agree with it but I can certainly understand why they did it.

After an announcement like that is made, there are still a few months needed to do the planning - no different than here or anywhere else. That will buy the time for negotiation.
former res

Broomall, PA

#44739 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Consider it like the opening of a bargaining position.
I dont agree with it but I can certainly understand why they did it.
After an announcement like that is made, there are still a few months needed to do the planning - no different than here or anywhere else. That will buy the time for negotiation.
I dig.

Like Obama playing hardball on the budget. He tried Mr. Nice guy last time and we know where it got him.

I wonder if Huggybear eloped with his donkey??
Frijoles

Litchfield, CT

#44740 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I dig.
Like Obama playing hardball on the budget. He tried Mr. Nice guy last time and we know where it got him.
I wonder if Huggybear eloped with his donkey??
The only problem, of course, is that I doubt this will bring the Palestinians into negotiation. It is clear that they are trying to use worldwide sympathy to pressure Israel into declaring the state, instead of negotiating bilaterally.

Huggy has been quiet. I hope he uses protection.

HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#44741 Dec 3, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I dig.
Like Obama playing hardball on the budget. He tried Mr. Nice guy last time and we know where it got him.
I wonder if Huggybear eloped with his donkey??
Former---I wonder if Huggybear eloped with his donkey??

HughBe--- My donkey is always attached to me, if you know what I mean. On the other hand, you have to mount your ass, if you know what I mean.

wink wink
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#44742 Dec 3, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The only problem, of course, is that I doubt this will bring the Palestinians into negotiation. It is clear that they are trying to use worldwide sympathy to pressure Israel into declaring the state, instead of negotiating bilaterally.
Huggy has been quiet. I hope he uses protection.
Frijoles---Huggy has been quiet. I hope he uses protection.

HughBe-- Tell me, how can I protect myself from myself? Unlike you, my donkey is attached to me.

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