Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43823
Nov 20, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
wisdom is setting in.
I judge each post on its merits - dont get ahead of yourself (consider that wisdom as well)
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43837
Nov 20, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
This is what I don't understand. The 7 principles set forth in the Noahide laws pre-date what you claim is the beginning of Judaism. You continually and correctly state that Noah, Abraham, Isaac were not Jews and did not follow the 613 mitzvot. So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed. They are no BS. They are the religious beliefs of the Patriarchs.
Eric---You continually and correctly state that Noah, Abraham, Isaac were not Jews

HughBe--- Correct in your understanding of my representation and in what the truth is.

Eric--and did not follow the 613 mitzvot.

HughBe-- Incorrect. I have never said such an unenlightened thing.

Eric-- So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed.

HughBe--- Correct and MUCH more.

Eric-- They are no BS. They are the religious beliefs of the Patriarchs

HughBe--- The beliefs are not BS, the concept/doctrine of ONLY these 7 rules/laws is.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43838
Nov 20, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I judge each post on its merits - dont get ahead of yourself (consider that wisdom as well)
Frijoles---dont get ahead of yourself

HughBe--- too late, I am a head
Eric

Addison, IL

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#43839
Nov 20, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>

Eric-- So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed.
HughBe--- Correct and MUCH more.
Prove it
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43840
Nov 20, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Prove it
Eric-- So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed.

HughBe--- Correct and MUCH more.

Eric--Prove it

HughBe--- Thank you for the opportunity to do so.

1. Do you suppose that Noah, Abraham, and Isaac did not honour their parents? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember.

2. Do you suppose that Noah, Abraham, and Isaac offered UNCLEAN animals to God? If they did not offer unclean animals to God then they KNEW about the laws of clean and unclean animals.
This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember.

Genesis 8:20"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every CLEAN beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar"

3. Do you suppose that Abraham a PROPHET of God knew not about the SABBATH given that God made it from CREATION?

List the laws etc. that are spoken of below. NOTE that the number of categories i.e. 4 are almost the same as your 7 Noahide laws.

Would there be ONLY 2 rules in each category? If there are only 2 rules per category you have more than 7 rules of Noahide.

"Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. "

4. Do you suppose that Abraham et. al. knew that it was wrong to covet? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember.

5. Knowing that there are clean and unclean animals do you suppose that they knew that they should NOT eat UNCLEAN things?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43841
Nov 20, 2012
 
Eric, you can add CIRCUMCISION and the growing of BEARDS to the list above. These support the fact and my pont that they did much more than the 7 as you claim.

Recall your words "these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed"
Eric

Addison, IL

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#43842
Nov 20, 2012
 

Judged:

1

1

1

HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Eric-- So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed.
HughBe--- Correct and MUCH more.
Eric--Prove it
HughBe--- Thank you for the opportunity to do so.
1. Do you suppose that Noah, Abraham, and Isaac did not honour their parents? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember.
2. Do you suppose that Noah, Abraham, and Isaac offered UNCLEAN animals to God? If they did not offer unclean animals to God then they KNEW about the laws of clean and unclean animals.
This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember.
Genesis 8:20"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every CLEAN beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar"
3. Do you suppose that Abraham a PROPHET of God knew not about the SABBATH given that God made it from CREATION?
List the laws etc. that are spoken of below. NOTE that the number of categories i.e. 4 are almost the same as your 7 Noahide laws.
Would there be ONLY 2 rules in each category? If there are only 2 rules per category you have more than 7 rules of Noahide.
"Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. "
4. Do you suppose that Abraham et. al. knew that it was wrong to covet? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember.
5. Knowing that there are clean and unclean animals do you suppose that they knew that they should NOT eat UNCLEAN things?
No, Hugh, this is not how you prove something. All of the above is supposition and assumption on your part. You are asking me questions. This is not going to be an attempt on your part to turn this into a Soccratic exercise.

I asked you to prove the additional religious practices and beliefs of the Patriarchs. Don't turn the burden of proof on me. You made the statement. Now prove it.

btw the clean/unclean animals are part of the Noahide principles.
Eric

Addison, IL

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#43844
Nov 20, 2012
 

Judged:

1

HughBe wrote:
Eric, you can add CIRCUMCISION and the growing of BEARDS to the list above. These support the fact and my pont that they did much more than the 7 as you claim.
Recall your words "these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed"
Don't ask me questions. Put your passages that support your position in your response. Circumcision might be one IF you get beyond the covenant part. No where does the Tanakh put a commandment of circumcision on people beyond the covenant. Therefore, the Noahide principles could not require of Gentiles this requirement. They are not part of the covenant.

Beards are entirely a different story.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43845
Nov 20, 2012
 
Eric---btw the clean/unclean animals are part of the Noahide principles.

HughBe--- Incorrect based on this quote from MY Jewish Learning. ""The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments:[to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8)."

Let me outline my proof that Noah, Abraham etc. kept more than Noahide 7 rules. The approach is simple I shall list things that are not in the rules.

1. Abraham paid tithes. "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him TITHES of all"

2. They knew the LAWS about clean and unclean animals.

3. They sacrificed CLEAN animals thus demonstrating KNOWLEDGE of the laws.

"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every CLEAN beast, and of every CLEAN fowl, and offered burnt OFFERINGS on the altar"

"Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a LAMB for a burnt offering" "Abraham went and took the RAM, and offered him up for a burnt offering "

4. I am saying that they knew how to put a "difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;" and as such they would NOT have eaten unclean meats.

5. Diet of Abraham "he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. "
Note clean meat eaten and NOT PORK.

6. They KNEW the WAY of the Lord, God said so. "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the WAY of the LORD, to do JUSTICE and JUDGMENT" The way of the Lord are His commandments.
e.g."a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the WAY" In other words not obeying His commandments is turning from His WAY. Clear.

7. The patriarchs knew that they should honour their parents as this is a part of the way of the Lord.

Now Eric, you prove your noahide laws.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43846
Nov 20, 2012
 
Abraham honouring his father illustrated.

"Terah TOOK Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there"

Note the language used i.e. Terah TOOK. Note Abram was MARRIED and as such an adult and yet the respect and obedience to his father.

Since: Oct 12

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#43847
Nov 20, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
From WHERE you derived this "general rule"? That all Non Muslims should be killed?
In which Islamic country ALL NON MUSLIMS were killed unless they accepted Islam?
In Christianity I can give you example of Spain, where not a Single Muslim was set to live, after Christians took it from Muslims.
The 12 Crusades are proof....nothing else can be said. Both religions are bloody. They harm humanity in everyway.

Since: Oct 12

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#43851
Nov 20, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
The Crusades are proof that Western World should have left Muslim world alone.
And WW-1 and WW-2 are proofs that the concept of "Extreme Nationalism" is wrong and can bring the world to the level of extinction.
And Isreal's atrocities against Palestinians for past 60 years are proof that world's moral is dead and they can close their eyes to whichever tragedy they want to close.
The Western world ALWAYS take a double standard, when Muslims are being persecuted, they do not even bother about it.
And when Muslims appear to be in the wrong, the whole world starting from UNO. to EU to Vatican and what not....the whole Media and the whole press has nothing else to talk about any thing else except the "Muslim's Barbaric Crimes".
It is this double standard which is cause of maximum problem in this world and where it shall lead the world, I do not know for sure,
Israel will set matters right. Palestinians will pay...they should be exited from the land of honey. Arabs burn their children.or haven't you heard yet? ALLAH is on Israels side.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#43853
Nov 20, 2012
 
TJ Monk wrote:
JEWS should not be in ISRAEL. The Palestinians have been there longer....it's THERE COUNTRY!!
rabbee: if the jews, should not be in Ysrael. then why does, G-D have them there? are you telling me, that G-D is making a mistake? and that your, more perfect than G-D? or is it just you, misintrepeting what G-D is actually doing? do you realize what you have just said, is blastphemy? blastphemy against what G-D, is actually commanding be done? well i have some old news for you, you ain't any kind of true messiah. your just another false prophet, who does not recognize. what G-D, is actually doing.
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43855
Nov 21, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
For Muslims dieing in battle field is an honor and not a punishment! from God !!
You keep telling yourself that.

The rest of us call that Darwinism.
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43856
Nov 21, 2012
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
No problem, every one tries to bite on a nut that he or she thinks is soft.
Only when they get their teeth into it, they find how hard it is to crack.
PS:
And you should overlook my typing and spelling mistakes, once you type on line (with one or two fingers, you do not check every spelling)
Nut is a pretty good description.

(Once again, please find a place in your heart to consider and accept my deepest and most sincere apologies for replying to you)
Eric

Addison, IL

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#43857
Nov 21, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>

List the laws etc. that are spoken of below. NOTE that the number of categories i.e. 4 are almost the same as your 7 Noahide laws.
Would there be ONLY 2 rules in each category? If there are only 2 rules per category you have more than 7 rules of Noahide.
"Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. "
This is exactly my point. For some you have listed mere explanations from the 7. For example, one principle is to worship only HaShem and not the pagan idols. From that one principle you get tithing to priests of HaShem (not the priests of the pagan religions), altars, sacrifices.

A lot of what you list is supposition on your part:

"4. Do you suppose that Abraham et. al. knew that it was wrong to covet? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember." You offer no passage in support that this was a commandment from HaShem nor do you offer a passage even in support of the idea that the Patriarchs had a position on coveting. HOWEVER PLEASE NOTE: not coveting in a direct outgrowth of not committing adultery.

"3. Do you suppose that Abraham a PROPHET of God knew not about the SABBATH given that God made it from CREATION? " another supposition on your part as to what Abraham knew or more importantly what he did or what HaShem told him to do. Again you offer no support for your position.

Now let's look at clean and unclean animals. All of the passages that you cite that actually talk of clean and unclean animals related to worship which flows from the command to only worship HaShem.

Your SUPPOSITION about diet are just that. All meals that Abraham ate are not recorded. You have cited but 2.

You still have offered no citation commanding the growing of beards. You have but offered a citation that Joseph had his beard shaved after a long prision stay where he could not have shaved. Nor have you shown that the growing of beards was but more of a custom rather than a commandment.

Your division of the discussion between commandments to the people of the covenant and commandments to all is taken. My wording was sloppy. But, we are talking about what HaShem would require of mankind as a whole when we speak of the Noahide Laws. And, HaShem did not require of mankind as a whole circumcision. If HaShem did, there are a lot of Christians who have a problem.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43858
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric, I suppose that you did not see the information below and hence the words you used to illustrate your point were from my earlier post.Recall your words,"A lot of what you list is supposition on your part"

In addition, have you considered that not everything was RECORDED but this does not mean that they were NOT KNOWN?

Cite the text where God told Cain or Adam that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER. The fact is they were TOLD otherwise it would NOT have been a SIN.

Lot called the desires of the men of Sodom WICKEDNESS and he offered his two VIRGIN daughters but their CORRUPT desires wanted the men. How did Lot know that it was wickedness, if not by the law of God?

List the sexual acts that are contemplated and prohibited in your Noahide laws and cite the passages of scripture that support them. Cite passages before the WRITTEN law.

Cite the scripture where God told Abel the types of animals that he should offer as a sacrifice.

Did Abel sacrifice the right KIND of animal and in the right CONDITION? How did he know? Cite scripture to support how he knew.

"And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac"
How did Israel know what is an ACCEPTABLE sacrfice.

My point they KNEW what was holy and what was not. Their actions and CONNECTION to God testify of these things.

---------

Now to the information that you did not see.

Eric---btw the clean/unclean animals are part of the Noahide principles.

HughBe--- Incorrect based on this quote from MY Jewish Learning. ""The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments:[to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8)."

Let me outline my proof that Noah, Abraham etc. kept more than Noahide 7 rules. The approach is simple I shall list things that are not in the rules.

1. Abraham paid tithes. "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him TITHES of all"

2. They knew the LAWS about clean and unclean animals.

3. They sacrificed CLEAN animals thus demonstrating KNOWLEDGE of the laws.

"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every CLEAN beast, and of every CLEAN fowl, and offered burnt OFFERINGS on the altar"

"Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a LAMB for a burnt offering" "Abraham went and took the RAM, and offered him up for a burnt offering "

4. I am saying that they knew how to put a "difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;" and as such they would NOT have eaten unclean meats.

5. Diet of Abraham "he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. "
Note clean meat eaten and NOT PORK.

6. They KNEW the WAY of the Lord, God said so. "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the WAY of the LORD, to do JUSTICE and JUDGMENT" The way of the Lord are His commandments.
e.g."a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the WAY" In other words not obeying His commandments is turning from His WAY. Clear.

7. The patriarchs knew that they should honour their parents as this is a part of the way of the Lord.

Example of Abraham honouring his father.

"Terah TOOK Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there"

Note the language used i.e. Terah TOOK. Note Abram was MARRIED and as such an adult and yet the respect and obedience to his father

Now Eric, you prove your noahide laws.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43859
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
This is exactly my point. For some you have listed mere explanations from the 7. For example, one principle is to worship only HaShem and not the pagan idols. From that one principle you get tithing to priests of HaShem (not the priests of the pagan religions), altars, sacrifices.
A lot of what you list is supposition on your part:
"4. Do you suppose that Abraham et. al. knew that it was wrong to covet? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember." You offer no passage in support that this was a commandment from HaShem nor do you offer a passage even in support of the idea that the Patriarchs had a position on coveting. HOWEVER PLEASE NOTE: not coveting in a direct outgrowth of not committing adultery.
"3. Do you suppose that Abraham a PROPHET of God knew not about the SABBATH given that God made it from CREATION? " another supposition on your part as to what Abraham knew or more importantly what he did or what HaShem told him to do. Again you offer no support for your position.
Now let's look at clean and unclean animals. All of the passages that you cite that actually talk of clean and unclean animals related to worship which flows from the command to only worship HaShem.
Your SUPPOSITION about diet are just that. All meals that Abraham ate are not recorded. You have cited but 2.
You still have offered no citation commanding the growing of beards. You have but offered a citation that Joseph had his beard shaved after a long prision stay where he could not have shaved. Nor have you shown that the growing of beards was but more of a custom rather than a commandment.
Your division of the discussion between commandments to the people of the covenant and commandments to all is taken. My wording was sloppy. But, we are talking about what HaShem would require of mankind as a whole when we speak of the Noahide Laws. And, HaShem did not require of mankind as a whole circumcision. If HaShem did, there are a lot of Christians who have a problem.
Eric---Your SUPPOSITION about diet are just that. All meals that Abraham ate are not recorded

HughBe--- So, are you really saying that the friend of God ate unclean meat?

Are you a friend of God?

Learn this, FRIENDS know about each other and this means that they know what pleases and what does not. Abraham knew God and His WAY. God said so and my question to you is, was God LYING that Abraham knew His WAY and that he kept His laws, commandments etc?

Also, I can unconditionally guarantee you that not one man living today is as close to God as was Abraham.

Finally, there is no SUPPOSOTION about what Abraham offered the strangers to eat and as difficult as it seems the meal offered was a reflection of his diet.

Note, he did not ask the men what they wanted to eat. Did you notice that?

Diet of Abraham."And he took BUTTER, and MILK, and the CALF which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. "

Please dispel any FOOLISH notion that you may have that Abraham, the PROPHET of God and FRIEND of God ate PIG or DOGS.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#43860
Nov 21, 2012
 
Eric, please take your time to digest the material.

I shall give you time so do not rush please, for your sake.
Eric

Addison, IL

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#43861
Nov 21, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
Cite the text where God told Cain or Adam that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER. The fact is they were TOLD otherwise it would NOT have been a SIN.
(Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."

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