Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

[Voluntarist]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you against all corporate welfare?
Oil industry? The banks?
Why single out Walmart?

All of it

[Cult of Reason]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
Business minded people will make more investing locally, commercial properties, businesses all of which will increase the tax rolls, something a Walmart won't do.

And what stops a Walmart from coming into a local community and undercutting the small businesses, eventually driving them out of businesses.

You seem to have this idealistic and overly simplistic vision that with less government, all will be wonderful. Rarely does reality conform neatly with ideological theories. Don't forget about the laws of unintended consequences.

[Voluntarist]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
I dont care about my sidewalk - I care about my street - and no, you are not welcome to do that. I only trust the government to get that right. As well as with Fire, Police, Schools, and other STUFF.
Infrastructure and common services.

I don't have a problem with services, I only have a problem with the involuntary nature of payment for those services.
Why must payment be extracted by threat of violence?

[Voluntarist]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Let that be your koan of choice. Go find a nice log in the forest and sit on it for a while. If you get back to me with an answer, you have failed.

Answer the question, is money property?

[Voluntarist]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Silly child, for the second time in 2 days...
We won. Get over it. Or move to Canada.

We, as if you are playing a football game, hurray for our team, this gives us license to steal.

[Cult of Reason]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
So I will come over and shovel your sidewalk and send you a bill.

And what happens if Frijoles chooses not to hire anyone to shovel his walkway in order to save money. That means that walkway becomes inaccessible to anyone who needs to use it. Kids walking to school, elderly walkers, etc,... Do you really trust people to always do the right thing when money is involved?

[Cult of Reason]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you against all corporate welfare?
Oil industry? The banks?
Why single out Walmart?

Probably because he was fired from Walmart ;-)

[former res]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
I dont care about my sidewalk - I care about my street - and no, you are not welcome to do that. I only trust the government to get that right. As well as with Fire, Police, Schools, and other STUFF.
Infrastructure and common services.

More free stuff!!!!!

[Cult of Reason]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't have a problem with services, I only have a problem with the involuntary nature of payment for those services.
Why must payment be extracted by threat of violence?

How else are you going to fund those services? If taxes were voluntary, do you really think enough would be collected to pay for the essential services? And what about all the freeloaders that choose to never pay but get to benefit from the services paid for by the generosity of others. How exactly is that fair?

[Frijoles]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't have a problem with services, I only have a problem with the involuntary nature of payment for those services.
Why must payment be extracted by threat of violence?

You are beeing a little sensitive.

I dont see it as violence, I see it as the moral obligation to pay for those services that by their very nature require central administration.

[Frijoles]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
Probably because he was fired from Walmart ;-)

Its tough having to be a greeter. Being pleasant and all of that...

[former res]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't have a problem with services, I only have a problem with the involuntary nature of payment for those services.
Why must payment be extracted by threat of violence?

Why do you say "involuntary."

Do you not believe in democracy?

Is there another form of gubbermint you prefer?

If so, does it exist anywhere?

Do you believe in anarchy?

Is there nothing most of us can agree on that we all
need to do together?

[Frijoles]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
And what happens if Frijoles chooses not to hire anyone to shovel his walkway in order to save money. That means that walkway becomes inaccessible to anyone who needs to use it. Kids walking to school, elderly walkers, etc,... Do you really trust people to always do the right thing when money is involved?

Good point but a bit tangential. In many communities it IS the responsibility of the private to keep the walkways clear. Or else be subject to Volunteerist's "violence" (i.e. a ticket).

What matters is those communal services. Which require central admin. Bridges, street maintence etc etc

[Frijoles]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
Answer the question, is money property?

I did answer it my own way. You just didnt approve of it, Grasshopper.

[former res]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
Probably because he was fired from Walmart ;-)

I don't know if I could go on living knowing that I couldn't make it at Walmart!

[Frijoles]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
We, as if you are playing a football game, hurray for our team, this gives us license to steal.

Actually it does....

File this one again in the "We won, you lost" bin.

[Voluntarist]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
And what stops a Walmart from coming into a local community and undercutting the small businesses, eventually driving them out of businesses.
You seem to have this idealistic and overly simplistic vision that with less government, all will be wonderful. Rarely does reality conform neatly with ideological theories. Don't forget about the laws of unintended consequences.

If there was no government there would be no Walmart

[Voluntarist]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
And what happens if Frijoles chooses not to hire anyone to shovel his walkway in order to save money. That means that walkway becomes inaccessible to anyone who needs to use it. Kids walking to school, elderly walkers, etc,... Do you really trust people to always do the right thing when money is involved?

Can you ever trust people to do the right thing? No as well as those members in government that don't always do the right thing.
But we are talking about the involuntary nature of government.

[Voluntarist]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
We werent talking about freedom - we were talking about whether I prefer there would be a structure to provide me services.
But if the government plows my street or supplies me with fire protection, and levies a mandatory tax to do so, that has nothing to do with "a right to other peoples property". Take your glasses off.

So you wont answer the question about whether money is property or not.

You are claiming that men and women forcing people to pay for services is OK as long as they claim that they are this artificial entity called government.
But if I shoveled your driveway and held a gun to your head to pay me that would be a.crime?

[Frijoles]

Voluntarist wrote:

<quoted text>
Can you ever trust people to do the right thing? No as well as those members in government that don't always do the right thing.
But we are talking about the involuntary nature of government.

GOvt and private are equally likely to be flawed in human behavior , but there are things that govt is uniquely qualified to do, due to its inherent centralization.