Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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39,441 - 39,460 of 68,361 Comments Last updated 12 hrs ago
former res

Broomall, PA

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#43231
Nov 12, 2012
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't have a problem with services, I only have a problem with the involuntary nature of payment for those services.
Why must payment be extracted by threat of violence?
Why do you say "involuntary."

Do you not believe in democracy?

Is there another form of gubbermint you prefer?

If so, does it exist anywhere?

Do you believe in anarchy?

Is there nothing most of us can agree on that we all
need to do together?
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43232
Nov 12, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
And what happens if Frijoles chooses not to hire anyone to shovel his walkway in order to save money. That means that walkway becomes inaccessible to anyone who needs to use it. Kids walking to school, elderly walkers, etc,... Do you really trust people to always do the right thing when money is involved?
Good point but a bit tangential. In many communities it IS the responsibility of the private to keep the walkways clear. Or else be subject to Volunteerist's "violence" (i.e. a ticket).

What matters is those communal services. Which require central admin. Bridges, street maintence etc etc
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43233
Nov 12, 2012
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Answer the question, is money property?
I did answer it my own way. You just didnt approve of it, Grasshopper.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#43234
Nov 12, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Probably because he was fired from Walmart ;-)
I don't know if I could go on living knowing that I couldn't make it at Walmart!
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43235
Nov 12, 2012
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
We, as if you are playing a football game, hurray for our team, this gives us license to steal.
Actually it does....

File this one again in the "We won, you lost" bin.
Voluntarist

United States

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#43236
Nov 12, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
And what stops a Walmart from coming into a local community and undercutting the small businesses, eventually driving them out of businesses.
You seem to have this idealistic and overly simplistic vision that with less government, all will be wonderful. Rarely does reality conform neatly with ideological theories. Don't forget about the laws of unintended consequences.
If there was no government there would be no Walmart
Voluntarist

United States

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#43237
Nov 12, 2012
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
And what happens if Frijoles chooses not to hire anyone to shovel his walkway in order to save money. That means that walkway becomes inaccessible to anyone who needs to use it. Kids walking to school, elderly walkers, etc,... Do you really trust people to always do the right thing when money is involved?
Can you ever trust people to do the right thing? No as well as those members in government that don't always do the right thing.
But we are talking about the involuntary nature of government.
Voluntarist

United States

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#43238
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
We werent talking about freedom - we were talking about whether I prefer there would be a structure to provide me services.
But if the government plows my street or supplies me with fire protection, and levies a mandatory tax to do so, that has nothing to do with "a right to other peoples property". Take your glasses off.
So you wont answer the question about whether money is property or not.

You are claiming that men and women forcing people to pay for services is OK as long as they claim that they are this artificial entity called government.
But if I shoveled your driveway and held a gun to your head to pay me that would be a.crime?
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43239
Nov 12, 2012
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you ever trust people to do the right thing? No as well as those members in government that don't always do the right thing.
But we are talking about the involuntary nature of government.
GOvt and private are equally likely to be flawed in human behavior , but there are things that govt is uniquely qualified to do, due to its inherent centralization.
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43240
Nov 12, 2012
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
So you wont answer the question about whether money is property or not.
You are claiming that men and women forcing people to pay for services is OK as long as they claim that they are this artificial entity called government.
It may be artifical to you but to those of us on the other side of the butterfly net (the ones holding the handle), it is VERY VERY real.
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
But if I shoveled your driveway and held a gun to your head to pay me that would be a.crime?
Not sure what relevancy that has. We already established that it is homewoners responsibility to shovel sidewalk, not govt.
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43241
Nov 12, 2012
 
Second time - I DID answer your question abount money. You just didnt approve of my answer.
former res

Broomall, PA

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#43242
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Good point but a bit tangential. In many communities it IS the responsibility of the private to keep the walkways clear. Or else be subject to Volunteerist's "violence" (i.e. a ticket).
What matters is those communal services. Which require central admin. Bridges, street maintence etc etc
Yes, we've agreed (at least the majority) in this community that sidewalks need to be passable within 24 hours of a snowfall. We're subject to citation if we don't. Same with my mom in G'ch. Growing up we didn't even have a sidewalk, then the town put it in and said, guess what, "You have to shovel it." And so it goes.

I think what ATF is really fighting is the 'Tyranny of the majority.'

He does believe collectivism is a dirty word.

I'm trying to find out what system he would prefer.
Voluntarist

United States

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#43243
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it does....
File this one again in the "We won, you lost" bin.
What you are saying is that you are on a team with a bunch of people who pay for services to a violent structure known as government and that you pay protection money to this racket and receive a uneven portion of services for your money.
And you are angry that there are people that are more financially successful than you so you want the racket to force by way of threat of violence those people to give up even more of their property for what you perceive as "the better good". Correct?
And how is that any different than a commune?
Frijoles

Bristol, CT

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#43244
Nov 12, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, we've agreed (at least the majority) in this community that sidewalks need to be passable within 24 hours of a snowfall. We're subject to citation if we don't. Same with my mom in G'ch. Growing up we didn't even have a sidewalk, then the town put it in and said, guess what, "You have to shovel it." And so it goes.
I think what ATF is really fighting is the 'Tyranny of the majority.'
He does believe collectivism is a dirty word.
I'm trying to find out what system he would prefer.
Yes, it appears he labels that "T o M" as government. Its a convenient bogeyman. The irony is that here in CT we are home rule - cant really get anymore decentralized than that. I would also note that NH voted for Obama.
Voluntarist

United States

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#43245
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
Second time - I DID answer your question abount money. You just didnt approve of my answer.
Its a simple yes or no answer, if you answered yes or no please provide the post #.
Voluntarist

United States

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#43246
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
GOvt and private are equally likely to be flawed in human behavior , but there are things that govt is uniquely qualified to do, due to its inherent centralization.
They can be centralized all they want, why can they rely on voluntary interactions with them?
Voluntarist

United States

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#43247
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
It may be artifical to you but to those of us on the other side of the butterfly net (the ones holding the handle), it is VERY VERY real.
<quoted text>
Not sure what relevancy that has. We already established that it is homewoners responsibility to shovel sidewalk, not govt.
Look at the question again, if I shoveled your DRIVEWAY.
By the way it used to be the responsibility of the land owner to take care of the street out front as well.
Voluntarist

United States

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#43248
Nov 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, it appears he labels that "T o M" as government. Its a convenient bogeyman. The irony is that here in CT we are home rule - cant really get anymore decentralized than that. I would also note that NH voted for Obama.
How did a fictional entity vote?
former res

Broomall, PA

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#43249
Nov 12, 2012
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>...You are claiming that men and women forcing people to pay for services is OK as long as they claim that they are this artificial entity called government...
Yes and only 51% of use voted for Obama.

Do you accept that?

What percent of a community voting for s shared service would satisfy you?
Voluntarist

United States

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#43250
Nov 12, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, we've agreed (at least the majority) in this community that sidewalks need to be passable within 24 hours of a snowfall. We're subject to citation if we don't. Same with my mom in G'ch. Growing up we didn't even have a sidewalk, then the town put it in and said, guess what, "You have to shovel it." And so it goes.
I think what ATF is really fighting is the 'Tyranny of the majority.'
He does believe collectivism is a dirty word.
I'm trying to find out what system he would prefer.
You can be a collectivist all you want but why do you have to resort to violence for others to join your team?

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