Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72047 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

Frijoles

South Glastonbury, CT

#37533 Jun 20, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Where are you? I'm reading 93.
Perception, my friend, perception
Frijoles

South Glastonbury, CT

#37534 Jun 20, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
However many other categories of "thinking" you want to define is irrelevant to me. I stand by my statement. I value TRUTH over TRUTHINESS. For that reason, I'd be much more inclined to trust the truthfulness of a belief from a rational thinking process over any other form of woo-woo*.
* woo-woo: adj. concerned with emotions, mysticism, or spiritualism; other than rational or scientific; mysterious; new agey. Also n., a person who has mystical or new age beliefs.
Something to ponder regarding human behavior:

Symbolic Interactionism

Symbolic Interaction, refers to the patterns of communication, interpretation and adjustment between individuals. Both the verbal and nonverbal responses that a listener then delivers are similarly constructed in expectation of how the original speaker will react. The ongoing process is like the game of charades; only it’s a full-fledged conversation.[1]....

...The term "symbolic interactionism" has come into use as a label for a relatively distinctive approach to the study of human life and human conduct.(Blumer, 1969). With Symbolic interactionism, reality is seen as social, developed interaction with others. Most symbolic interactionists believe a physical reality does indeed exist by an individual's social definitions, and that social definitions do develop in part or relation to something “real.” People do not respond to this reality directly, but rather one may define the situation as it exists[clarification needed].

Humans therefore exist in three realities: a physical objective reality, a social reality, and a unique. A unique is described as a third reality created out of the social reality, a private interpretation of the reality that is shown to the person by others (Charon, 2007).[6]

Both individuals and society cannot be separated far from each other for two reasons. One, being that they are both created though social interaction, and two, one cannot be understood in terms without the other. Behavior is not defined by forces from the environment such as drives, or instincts, but rather by a reflective, socially understood meaning of both the internal and external incentives that are currently presented (Meltzer et al., 1975).[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_interac...
----

IN other words - we react not to the reality of the other person, but to WHAT we think the other person is (we impute intentions and motives)- and they respond in kind to our adjusted behavior in their own personal way of what they think WE are doing.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#37535 Jun 20, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
He doesnt even need the latter now that Fecal Transplants are now the rage (See my previous post for more info if you are interested).
I leave all the "crap" for my son the microbiologist.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#37536 Jun 20, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Perception, my friend, perception
Truthiness.

Baa...HumBug
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#37537 Jun 20, 2012
Debunking The Christ Myth?

Argument from, Glenn Kimball, against The Christ Conspiracy (which he hasn’t read),

Reply by D.M. Murdock, author of The Christ Conspiracy, Part- 0 (Introduction – by MUQ)

A. Did Jesus existed? Contrasting Responses!

Did Jesus really existed? If you ask this question to a Muslim, he will answer “Yes” with the same conviction and confidence as if you asked him if Prophet Mohammad really existed. There will hardly be any doubt in the mind of any Muslim that Jesus was indeed a historical personality.

But it is strange, if you ask the same question to so called Christians of our time, they will answer you in faltering language, Yes, May be, Might be, I do not really know, My Church says so…. Will be the typical answers from laymen.

The preachers and priests (of the main Church Denominations) will no doubt answer quickly in the affirmative, but their situation shall be the “official” position of their respective Churches and not because of their own efforts and study.

If you ask this Question (i.e. if Jesus really existed?) to historians and Archeologists or those who are scholars of contemporary Roman and Greek civilizations, they would (most honest of them) will say ‘We are not sure yet, we have not yet found any concluding evidence”.

Is it not strange that Christianity, which boasts of Non Broken chain of Bishops and Popes and with 2.2 Billion followers in the world today and then they are leading the world in science, technology and exploration is space, oceans and earth and tracing evolution path of species and what not…. Are so confused when asked about the historical existence of even Jesus Christ?

It is not strange, those who are aware of history, evolution and development of Christianity know that based on the available information, it is not possible to prove that Jesus was a historical personality at all.

B. Why “Historical Jesus” was Not Important To Early Christians:

It is not difficult to diagnose the apathy of Christians to the Historical Jesus. Jesus was born in the Jewish family; he followed all the Jewish customs and followed all the laws of Moses and prophets.

He started his mission as a prophet amongst the Jews and all his disciples were Jews. He selected 12 Chosen Disciples and then another 70 disciples from Jews and charged them to propagate his message amongst different cities of Jewish population. He forbade them to enter any Non Jewish or Roman or Greek cities.

For reasons which we do not want to go in details, majority of Jews (their scholars and religious leaders, to be sure) rejected the message of Jesus and became his enemies and tried to kill him. Jesus had to leave the earth in a hurry, without making fool proof arrangement as to how his teachings were to be preserved and propagated.

After Jesus had left the earth, his chosen disciples continued the mission of Jesus by preaching his teachings to the Jews as directed by Jesus. Early followers of Jesus were not distinguishable from Jews of that time, except that they believed also in Jesus as well as all other Jewish prophets.

But bulk of Jews, remained aloof to the teachings of disciples of Jesus, became their enemies and started persecuting them.

B1. Rise of St. Paul:

Chosen Disciples of Jesus continued their work amongst Jews as Jesus told them, but then all of a Sudden a Pharisee Jew named Saul, who was till then staunch enemy of Jesus and his followers, said that he has now seen the truth and saw a vision, in which Jesus appointed him an Apostle to work amongst Non Jews.

This was a self made claim with no actual proof, but due to his personality and initiative, he got his message thru to many Non Jews who started joining in big numbers and soon became in majority.

(Contd.)

MUQ

Qatif, Saudi Arabia

#37538 Jun 20, 2012
These Non Jews were not interested in being associated with Jewish followers of Jesus and therefore were not interested in the “history of living Jesus”.

Most of the chosen Apostle of Jesus were certain that second coming and end of world would happen within their life time, so they did not feel any real need to gather and preserve evidences about the physical remnants of Jesus and to preserve his historical personality.

C. Risen Christ versus Historical Jesus:

Paul soon started implementing his own ideas and his own “homegrown” philosophies into the simple moral teachings of Jesus.

The center piece of Paul’ teaching was “Risen Christ” one who was raised from the dead on the third day of alleged crucifixion, all of Paul’ attention was to his “Risen Christ” and he gave very little importance to the life and words and teachings of “Historical Jesus”. That is why we do not find any quotation from Jesus’ lips in all the Epistles written by Paul.

In order to break the link between Judaism and Christianity, Paul abrogated all the applicable laws of Torah and Jewish customs and Jewish festivals and that also helped in forgetting the Historical side of Jesus’ life being preserved.

D. Persecution by Roman and Jews:

Followers of Jesus were facing dual persecution from Jews and well as Roman empires, both of whom considered this “new religion” a threat to their own rule.

The persecution of Christians started within decades of departure of Jesus from the scene and continued for close to three centuries. It ended when Roman Emperor Constantine joined the faith and Christianity became state religion in fourth century.

E.“Manufacturing Mill” of Historical Evidence:

Since the followers of Jesus had lost the most important evidence about historical Jesus by neglecting it in the initial few decades, they tried to compensate it by “creating” this evidence in the form of spurious writings.

Hundreds of Gospels and Epistles and Acts were written in the first and second century of Christian Era, without any regard to the rule of evidence. No one actually knows who were the real authors and what relation they born to the name towards whom they were dedicated.

The truth and falsehood good intermixed, so when the Church decided to “canonize” scriptures, they had no basis or logic as to which of these hundreds of documents were true and which were spurious. So they resorted to “help from the Holy Ghost” and selected the Four Gospels and a few letters as “Authentic” and rejected the bulk of literature as “Apocrypha”.

No one really knows if this division is right or based on the true evidence and rules of authentication.

F. Historical Jesus is merged in the Myth and in the shadow of Risen Christ:

So now it is very difficult to find out any truth about the Historical side of Jesus. Zealots of Christians forged many “artifacts” connected with the life of Jesus, like the “original cross”, the “burial sheets, with spots of blood”, the “garments of Jesus”(by snatching them from Roman Soldiers!) and many decrees of Roman Empire and Herod etc.

Sometime they try to prove “existence” of Jesus by some ambiguous statements of Jewish Historian Josephus! Can you beat it!!

It is like a drowning man trying to catch one straw after another! One has to feel pity for these 2.2 Billion Christians, trying to PROVE that Jesus did exist because Josephus says so!!

G. The present study:

It is a rebuttal from D.M. Murdock on claims made by Mr. Glenn Kimball on the historical existence and proofs that Jesus was indeed a historical personality.

I have no comment to make of my own, except what I have given in this opening statement, I leave this to the readers to decide, and whose arguments carry more weight.

As a Muslim, I have firm belief that Jesus did exist, simply because God Almighty says that in Quran!!

(Contd.)

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#37539 Jun 20, 2012
MUQ wrote:
GLENN KIMBALL IS A SELF PROMOTING CHARLETAN WHOSE STATEMENTS HAVE BEEN DEBUNKED BY SCHOLARS AROUND THE WORLD. HE SELLS HIS WORKS WHEREVER HE CAN
"Glenn" Kimball's real name is Eldon W. Kimball; he may be a Mormon and he operates a Web site where he sells books, or at least photocopied works, relating to religious topics such as the "secret teachings of Jesus" and other apocryphal subjects. Since at least mid 2001 he has been posting messages on his discussion board regarding the "excavation" of a cave near the rumoured location of Burrows Cave; he claims to be in the process of performing site studies in preparation for the recovery of golden coffins, inscriptions relating to the Bible, and so forth.
Kimball claims to have conducted GPR (Ground Penetrating RADAR) and other technical studies of the area in question. Some of the charts and other data from these studies were posted on Art Bell's Web site since Kimball has been a frequent guest on Bell's show. However, as another researcher points out on his site, none of the charts show any sort of legend or distance scale, so we're presented with ambiguous data that could have been obtained anywhere.
Without the chart certification data and scale indicators we have no idea what the images show, where they were taken, or even if they were obtained by a competent operator. See an off-sitearticle for more information, as well as allegations (as yet uncorroborated) that the GPR and other sensing equipment was tampered with in order to cause it to produce spurious results.
At first it seemed Kimball represented a completely new, independent player who was trying to capitalize on the notoriety of the cave, possibly in order to promote his Christian-text sales efforts. However, recent postings on Kimball's e-mail list have revealed that the old triumvirate of Wayne May (publisher of The Ancient American magazine), Frank Collin, and Russell Burrows are involved in Kimball's efforts. This is extremely interesting, given the latter's statement that "In January, 1998, I was informed by the person now in charge of the property that my responsibility to what has become known as Burrows Cave had ended" (Burrows, 1998). If this is true, how has he suddenly become involved in this saga yet again?
Kimball himself is an interesting character. He uses the honorific "Dr." but does not specify in what field it was awarded. He also claims to have "taught at Southern Illinois University" in the 1976-78 timeframe. The personnel department at this institution was unable to find any record of Kimball's status as a faculty member; instead, he was listed as a graduate teaching assistant in the Communications department during the timeframe mentioned above. They were also unable to find any record of his having received a PhD or any other advanced degree.
TO BE CONTINUED
Glen

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#37540 Jun 20, 2012
Similarly, Kimball recently claimed he was in discussion with The Discovery Channel regarding "his" new TV series; in one message he claimed "we have met with [the channel] on Monday and shown them the pilot of my new series. It was so well received that they told us point blank they are sending us a package contract for our consideration" (Kimball, msg. of 25 Oct., 2001). When contacted about this, an individual working on the concept for the series in question replied:

"All I can say is that Glenn Kimball is exaggerating. We are developing a concept with a producer...[who]...is the same guy who put us in touch with Glenn to begin with and he put Glenn in the demo reel as the host. Glenn is not going to be the host. He may come in as an expert here and there, but he is not the host...I think we mentioned the show to Discovery (and only in passing) but at this point they have not expressed any level of interest." [identity withheld by request]

Another researcher who is familiar with Kimball's career commented on a portion of his resume':

"I can give you a concrete example of how Kimball inflates his (self-) importance:

3- Glenn was the keynote address speaker at the UFO convention in 1999 in Nevada

In reality, I was the keynote speaker at that conference (UFO Congress). Because I teach that Christ is an ancient mythical motif found in many pre-Christian cultures, Laurence Gardner, who was set to speak after me (I had replaced Sitchin, who couldn't make it), objected to my presence, and I was asked not to show up. I stepped down, and Gardner decided not to show anyway. I was replaced by Jordan Maxwell, who likewise teaches Christian mythology, and Gardner was replaced by Kimball, who likewise spreads pablum. He was very much a last-minute replacement, and followed Maxwell, who would then technically be considered the keynote speaker." (Acharya S., msg of 17 Aug, 2001).

The same person noted that many of Kimball's "hidden Christian documents" are known apocrypha -- texts of highly questionable authority and authenticity -- that are not accepted by the mainstream Church. Kimball often claims to have "found" these himself, when in reality most have been known, and known to be forgeries, for centuries.

If the rest of Kimball's credentials and alleged accomplishments are similarly exaggerated, it bodes ill for the future of his escapades with the Cave. That he may be a Mormon is even more revealing, since the LDS church have long tried to manufacture evidence to support the authenticity of their claims regarding pre-Columbian American and "the lost tribes of Israel."
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

#37541 Jun 20, 2012
Belief, faith, certitude. All three are related.
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

#37543 Jun 20, 2012
How?
rider

Gwinn, MI

#37546 Jun 20, 2012
NJDOC Privatization/William Palatucci
by: firstamend07
Tue Nov 16, 2010 at 06:36:01 AM EST


This is interesting.- promoted by Rosi
One of the targets of the Christie privatization task force has been the New Jersey Department of Corrections.

Any wonder now?

PolitickerNJ's #1 Power Broker is William Palatucci.

He is described as Governor Christie's main confidant.

He is also on the management team for CEC, Inc. The Community Education Center, Inc.(CEC, Inc.) runs privatized Halfway houses and Prisons throughout the country.

The Billion Dollar New Jersey Department of Corrections would be a nice "plum" for CEC ,Inc.

Of course you will only hear how CEC, Inc. is there only to save the taxpayer money!

Whitman had Parsons (family connections), Christie might be having CEC (#1 Buddy connection)!

Watch out Corrections Department!

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#37547 Jun 20, 2012
MUQ wrote:
Debunking The Christ Myth?
Argument from, Glenn Kimball, against The Christ Conspiracy (which he hasn’t read),
Reply by D.M. Murdock, author of The Christ Conspiracy, Part- 0 (Introduction – by MUQ)
A. Did Jesus existed? Contrasting Responses!
Did Jesus really existed? If you ask this question to a Muslim, he will answer “Yes” with the same conviction and confidence as if you asked him if Prophet Mohammad really existed. There will hardly be any doubt in the mind of any Muslim that Jesus was indeed a historical personality.
But it is strange, if you ask the same question to so called Christians of our time, they will answer you in faltering language, Yes, May be, Might be, I do not really know, My Church says so…. Will be the typical answers from laymen.
The preachers and priests (of the main Church Denominations) will no doubt answer quickly in the affirmative, but their situation shall be the “official” position of their respective Churches and not because of their own efforts and study.
If you ask this Question (i.e. if Jesus really existed?) to historians and Archeologists or those who are scholars of contemporary Roman and Greek civilizations, they would (most honest of them) will say ‘We are not sure yet, we have not yet found any concluding evidence”.

<useless nonsense deleted to save space>
Actually, most REAL historians will say that he most likely did exist. There is enough evidence for that from the writings of both xian and non-xian sources. And good luck finding anyopne who thinks of themself as xian as saying that they don't think that he existed. The problem is getting the xians to realize that he was nothing like what they want to believe. Just about as hard as getting muzzies to understand that Morhammud was nothing more than a camel stealing child rapist with DELUSIONS of grandeur...

Sheilaa

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#37549 Jun 20, 2012
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, most REAL historians will say that he most likely did exist. There is enough evidence for that from the writings of both xian and non-xian sources. And good luck finding anyopne who thinks of themself as xian as saying that they don't think that he existed. The problem is getting the xians to realize that he was nothing like what they want to believe. Just about as hard as getting muzzies to understand that Morhammud was nothing more than a camel stealing child rapist with DELUSIONS of grandeur...
It is not up to people who believe in Jesus to prove that he existed it is up to the skeptics to prove that he didn't.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#37550 Jun 20, 2012
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
It is not up to people who believe in Jesus to prove that he existed it is up to the skeptics to prove that he didn't.
Wrong! It is the believers that are making the claim, it is up to them to provide proof.

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#37551 Jun 20, 2012
Sheilaa wrote:
<quoted text>
It is not up to people who believe in Jesus to prove that he existed it is up to the skeptics to prove that he didn't.
Proving that Jesus was not who xians want to claim is actually incredibly easy. One need only look at what the Bible says.

Jesus could not have been the Messiah, because he failed to fulfill the prophecies.

Jesus could not have been a god, because the Bible makes it clear that there was one and only one God for the children of Israel, who stands alone - and NOT as part one of a trilogy.

Claiming that Jesus was a Son of God is fairly meaningless, since that title was used to describe ANY righteous Jewish male.
JOEL PASTAKIA

Mumbai, India

#37553 Jun 21, 2012
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>

Proving that Jesus was not who xians want to claim is actually incredibly easy. One need only look at what the Bible says.
Jesus could not have been the Messiah, because he failed to fulfill the prophecies.
Jesus could not have been a god, because the Bible makes it clear that there was one and only one God for the children of Israel, who stands alone - and NOT as part one of a trilogy.
Claiming that Jesus was a Son of God is fairly meaningless, since that title was used to describe ANY righteous Jewish male.
If by the Bible you mean the Tanakh/OT, then, sorry, Jesus' advent on earth exceeded the scope of the demon worship and dualistic nonsense found in the Hebrew Bible.

The Trinity of the NT is a nondual phenomenon and has to be understood from a nondual perspective.

It would be an error to apply crude dualistic yardsticks to evaluate the triune aspects of one archetypal reality.
Frijoles

South Glastonbury, CT

#37554 Jun 21, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Truthiness.
Baa...HumBug
I should note that soon after I made that 75 degree perception comment I fled my office for the day - too darn hot in there

Frijoles

South Glastonbury, CT

#37555 Jun 21, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
I leave all the "crap" for my son the microbiologist.
According to what I have reading and hearing on the news lately, Medical Ecology is poised to be all the rage soon.

Maybe your son can give Joel a discount.
former res

Broomall, PA

#37556 Jun 21, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you sure its about your own beliefs and not something else?
(lol in advance)
Could my zits, thick glasses, greasy hair, high water pants and pocket protector.

And the lack of god in my life!
former res

Broomall, PA

#37557 Jun 21, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you met a Creationist/Intelligent Designist who believed in plurality of viewpoints? I havent.
But, the point is I have also met believers who do not believe in a plurality of viewpoints.

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