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“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#101 Oct 10, 2012
RACE wrote:
So now you are contradicting yourself. Before you said you did not give a rats ass what kind of job he had as long as he "behaved".
See, its all relative and subjective, its your perception of what is and is not "Time Served". If you were true to your principal you would have to concede that an xcon could indeed be a mall santa, even if he was a phedo.
That is not to say you want to continue to punish him for his crime (which you are implying I am doing), but rather, that occupation and his criminal past are just "Not a good fit"
Well, that is how I see vick and the NFL.
<quoted text>
Vick's occupation has nothing to do with his criminal past.

Forget Vick. In your mind, what is the objective of the criminal justice system of imprisoning people for committing crimes? If it is not intended to be as punishment tailored to fit the crime, like grounding a kid for the weekend when he f's up at home, what is it then?
PEllen

Chicago, IL

#102 Oct 10, 2012
So how does one show remorse, or how does one show that he has straightened up?
By acting( and talking but not just talking) in a good way for a period of time. If you take away the opportunity to act, meaning work, interact with people, you have taken away the opportunity to demonstrate remorse.
Unless by remorse you are confining it to attitude and words, but those can be faked.
PEllen

Chicago, IL

#103 Oct 10, 2012
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>Vick's occupation has nothing to do with his criminal past.
Forget Vick. In your mind, what is the objective of the criminal justice system of imprisoning people for committing crimes? If it is not intended to be as punishment tailored to fit the crime, like grounding a kid for the weekend when he f's up at home, what is it then?
Merely imprisoning someone does not make them remorseful for their crime.
It is intangible and subjective.

Would you have an exit interview from prison to see how teh guy REALLY feels and then set his probabtion terms? That is too subjective and could be abused

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#104 Oct 10, 2012
PEllen wrote:
<quoted text>Merely imprisoning someone does not make them remorseful for their crime. It is intangible and subjective.
Would you have an exit interview from prison to see how teh guy REALLY feels and then set his probabtion terms? That is too subjective and could be abused
This was a reponse to my post, but was it directed at me or Race? Cause you've supported what I've been saying. You can't objectively measure a person's remorse which is why I chose not to worry about remorse and only worry about punishment.

Race had it right last night. This horse is dead and bloody. He's saying teh same things over and over in every way imaginable as am I. We simply have 2 differnt ways of looking at things and neither is able to understand how the other can think that way.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#105 Oct 10, 2012
Good! Then I call "I win!"
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>
This was a reponse to my post, but was it directed at me or Race? Cause you've supported what I've been saying. You can't objectively measure a person's remorse which is why I chose not to worry about remorse and only worry about punishment.
Race had it right last night. This horse is dead and bloody. He's saying teh same things over and over in every way imaginable as am I. We simply have 2 differnt ways of looking at things and neither is able to understand how the other can think that way.

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#106 Oct 10, 2012
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>
This was a reponse to my post, but was it directed at me or Race? Cause you've supported what I've been saying. You can't objectively measure a person's remorse which is why I chose not to worry about remorse and only worry about punishment.
Race had it right last night. This horse is dead and bloody. He's saying teh same things over and over in every way imaginable as am I. We simply have 2 differnt ways of looking at things and neither is able to understand how the other can think that way.
Tonka, Haven't you said before that you've not be around or personally exposed to much violence or physically violent people?(although I believe we were discussing domestic abuse at the time)
I know that Race has had some experience with it, and I know I have. Perhaps that's the core to the difference in our POVs.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#107 Oct 10, 2012
RACE wrote:
Good! Then I call "I win!"
<quoted text>
Wait, what? How was it a draw last night and now you claim win? WTF?

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#108 Oct 10, 2012
(Sigh),
Ok, draw then.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>Wait, what? How was it a draw last night and now you claim win? WTF?
PEllen

Chicago, IL

#109 Oct 11, 2012
RACE wrote:
(Sigh),
Ok, draw then.
<quoted text>
Dear Dead Horse,

This weeks issue of The NewYorker has an article about a guy in Detroit who went from being an honr student to being a hitman. He is in jail but he discusses atonement.

The issue has a real cool cover that even my conservative husband wants. IYou can get a trial subscription to read the article without committing to anything

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#110 Oct 11, 2012
PEllen wrote:
<quoted text>Dear Dead Horse,
This weeks issue of The NewYorker has an article about a guy in Detroit who went from being an honr student to being a hitman. He is in jail but he discusses atonement.
The issue has a real cool cover that even my conservative husband wants. IYou can get a trial subscription to read the article without committing to anything
For the record, I am not anti atonement/remorse/find jesus/learn from your mistakes/yadda yadda yadda. I just see that as a secondary possible side benefit to the primary objective of incarceration: to punish criminals

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#111 Oct 11, 2012
I believe that the primary objective of incarceration actually is stated to be rehabilitation, not punishment. WE fail miserably at that.

Then again, I'm not fond of Germany's practice of limiting a murderer to about 20 years in prison.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#112 Oct 11, 2012
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
I believe that the primary objective of incarceration actually is stated to be rehabilitation, not punishment. WE fail miserably at that.
Then again, I'm not fond of Germany's practice of limiting a murderer to about 20 years in prison.
If you're trying to rehabilitate someone, how is locking them up going to do it? I know they have some programs, but it would be so much better in their sentence if they had to complete certain programs. Of course, that would cost money.

No easy answers.(Not saying you think there are.)

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#113 Oct 11, 2012
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
actually is stated to be rehabilitation, not punishment.
Stated where?

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#114 Oct 11, 2012
That is the government's assertion. I've read it and heard it from government officials.(I have an interest in the penal system.) IOW< I have no source at the tip of my fingers, but it's something I"ve read and heard numerous times.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#115 Oct 11, 2012
Toj wrote:
<quoted text>
If you're trying to rehabilitate someone, how is locking them up going to do it? I know they have some programs, but it would be so much better in their sentence if they had to complete certain programs. Of course, that would cost money.
No easy answers.(Not saying you think there are.)
Even the programs that have a high success rate get taken away for budget cuts. NEvermind that it's cheaper to actually rehabilitate a criminal and prepare him for life on the outside than it is to house him for life as a repeat offender, not to mention the actual costs of his crimes.
PEllen

Chicago, IL

#116 Oct 11, 2012
The issue of retribution vs rehabilitation in the prison systems goes back to the mid 1800's and arose first in the US possibly concurrent with Britain.

If I remeber my political science courses correctly

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