Abby 10-8

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“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

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#61
Oct 9, 2012
 
Did you happen to notice a lack of stray cats?
;)
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>
Not a differnt standard at all. I don't care to know who's working in the kitchen, but were that info provided to me, it would not alter my decision to eat there. My decision to eat there is based on the food and the service. Unless the ex-con is negatively affecting one of those, his employement is a non-factor.

Toj

“Equality”

Since: Jul 12

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#62
Oct 9, 2012
 
I see a big difference in how Race looks at this issue vs. Tonka.

Tonka is able to separate his emotions from it.

Race is not.

Neither is wrong. It just is.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#63
Oct 9, 2012
 
NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>I see a BIG difference between someone serving time and returning to a celebrity status job and one who is in a kitchen cooking (or more likely washing dishes).
But what exactly is the difference? Is there some implicit sentence that ex-cons are required to not rise above a certain level after they get out? If the skills they possess are of more benefit to an employer than washing dishes, why isn't it a good thing for the ex-con to put those skills to good use and find gainful employment? Its like you guys are ok with them finding a crappy job, but don't want them to have any real success. To me, that gives them less incentive to walk the straight and narrow.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

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#64
Oct 9, 2012
 
No, I wish them all the success in the world, same as I do anybody. Its more about how my of my respect they get, not whether I view them as unworthy of being successful.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But what exactly is the difference? Is there some implicit sentence that ex-cons are required to not rise above a certain level after they get out? If the skills they possess are of more benefit to an employer than washing dishes, why isn't it a good thing for the ex-con to put those skills to good use and find gainful employment? Its like you guys are ok with them finding a crappy job, but don't want them to have any real success. To me, that gives them less incentive to walk the straight and narrow.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#65
Oct 9, 2012
 
RACE wrote:
No, I wish them all the success in the world, same as I do anybody. Its more about how my of my respect they get, not whether I view them as unworthy of being successful.
<quoted text>
But that's not the message you send if you stop dining at a restaurant because the cook is an ex-con. To me, it appears as if you are trying to dole out more punishment to someone who has served his time and to the employer giving him a chance.

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#66
Oct 9, 2012
 
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But what exactly is the difference? Is there some implicit sentence that ex-cons are required to not rise above a certain level after they get out? If the skills they possess are of more benefit to an employer than washing dishes, why isn't it a good thing for the ex-con to put those skills to good use and find gainful employment? Its like you guys are ok with them finding a crappy job, but don't want them to have any real success. To me, that gives them less incentive to walk the straight and narrow.
I have no problem with them serving time and then making a success of themselves.
I do have a problem with them serving time for something so heinous and then just stepping right back into a celebrity status job.
I would have no problem with a con being a chef after they've served time, I just think it more likely they'd be washing dishes. I have no problem with them being restaurant owners after they've gotten out, through hard work.
Vick deserves NOTHING more than a minimum wage job shovelling excrement, same for Mike Tyson. Neither one, imo, should have ever had another moment of celebrity after they went to prison beyond a short line or minute or two in a "whatever happened to...?" sort of story in print or on tv.
Let them pick crops.

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#67
Oct 9, 2012
 
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But that's not the message you send if you stop dining at a restaurant because the cook is an ex-con. To me, it appears as if you are trying to dole out more punishment to someone who has served his time and to the employer giving him a chance.
I've eaten at places that I knew the cook was an ex-con. I get Dave's Killer Bread when it's on sale, and love the stuff.
However, those guys had reformed, had worked to get a decent job after their time.
Vick and Tyson wanted to just step right back into their old jobs. I don't think they deserve that at all, ever. They lost that by their actions, and even with time served, they shouldn't be going back to a life where they are praised and idolized by fans.
I don't REALLY have a problem with them finding decent jobs, above a shit-shoveling position, but I wouldn't hire either for anything else. Partly because I have even less respect and more dislike for people of means doing that crap than I do for those who don't have those advantages. They both had it made, but couldn't control their vile impulses.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#68
Oct 9, 2012
 
NWmoon wrote:
I have no problem with them serving time and then making a success of themselves.
You and Race both say thing s like this...
NWmoon wrote:
I do have a problem with them serving time for something so heinous and then just stepping right back into a celebrity status job.
But then you say things like this...
NWmoon wrote:
Let them pick crops.
and this....
NWmoon wrote:
Neither one, imo, should have ever had another moment of celebrity after they went to prison
and this....

That first statement is simply not consistent with the rest. Obviously do have a problem with them making a success of themselves(and I'm not knocking you for it, just spelling it out as I see it), otherwise you would not care what kind of job they got or how fast they became successful. What I see is that you don't view the court ordered punishment as enough. You want further punishment upon release. You want them to start at the bottom, even if they have skills that are desired at the top.

And this celebrity thing is a big thing with you. I don't see why it matters.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#69
Oct 9, 2012
 
Question for Moon and Race:

It is clear that you think the justice system failed and that Vick's sentence was too lenient. Is there a sentence that you would feel better about that would lead you to not be so upset after he got out if he stepped back into success? ie: is there any amount of prison that you feel would be enough suffering/punishment that you would not want further punishment upon release and would not care how quickly he was able to become successful? If he served 15 years and then someone thought he was smart enough to be a head coach and he got a high paying head coaching job shortly after being released, would that still bother you, or would the harsher prison sentence abate that?

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#70
Oct 9, 2012
 
Mister Tonka wrote:
Question for Moon and Race:
It is clear that you think the justice system failed and that Vick's sentence was too lenient. Is there a sentence that you would feel better about that would lead you to not be so upset after he got out if he stepped back into success? ie: is there any amount of prison that you feel would be enough suffering/punishment that you would not want further punishment upon release and would not care how quickly he was able to become successful? If he served 15 years and then someone thought he was smart enough to be a head coach and he got a high paying head coaching job shortly after being released, would that still bother you, or would the harsher prison sentence abate that?
Sure, life in prison. Bury them anywhere after that.

It's celebrities I feel this way about, not the run of the mill prisoners. They had fame, fortune, but it wasn't enough. They wanted to be able to hurt others and have no consequences. They weren't doing it because they had no other way to earn money or get laid. They both had jobs where they could hurt other people with impunity while working, too.
There is also my feelings about pro sports mixed in with my pov.
I have a similar lack of sympathy for rich people who succumb to depression and kill themselves. They have treatment available, they can afford the medical bills, unlike many who struggle with mental illness without any professional help.

Toj

“Equality”

Since: Jul 12

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#71
Oct 9, 2012
 

Judged:

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NWmoon wrote:
<quoted text>Sure, life in prison. Bury them anywhere after that.
It's celebrities I feel this way about, not the run of the mill prisoners. They had fame, fortune, but it wasn't enough. They wanted to be able to hurt others and have no consequences. They weren't doing it because they had no other way to earn money or get laid. They both had jobs where they could hurt other people with impunity while working, too.
There is also my feelings about pro sports mixed in with my pov.
I have a similar lack of sympathy for rich people who succumb to depression and kill themselves. They have treatment available, they can afford the medical bills, unlike many who struggle with mental illness without any professional help.
The actual mental illness can keep people from seeking treatment, though.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

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#72
Oct 9, 2012
 
No, you are saying those things, not me. You are the one drawing an arbitrary line between con or not. I am drawing a line at (as you pointed out) repentance for that crime. But to use your arbitrary line...
I would go to a restaurant if the cook was a xcon convicted of a ponzi scheme.


I would NOT go to a restaurant if the cook was a xcon convicted of tossing kittens into a wood chipper.

I dont have to worry about whether the cook in the second example will lose his job or feel like I am punishing him further, because you will be there dining anyway, so my decision to go somewhere else will be moot.
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But that's not the message you send if you stop dining at a restaurant because the cook is an ex-con. To me, it appears as if you are trying to dole out more punishment to someone who has served his time and to the employer giving him a chance.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

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#73
Oct 9, 2012
 
Either your not reading my posts, or you are choosing to ignore what I wrote.

I clearly stated that I have NO opinion on his sentence, none at all, I have never considered whether the sentence was too short, too long or just right.

I dont care about how much or little time he served, my issue (again) is with whether he should be allowed to represent the face of the NFL. I dont care if he got out and cured cancer or invented a flying car and became richer than bill gates.
My point is that the NFL has an image it presents to the world, and I dont think vick fits that image. Apparently others disagree and he is now employed in the NFL, well good for him, but I dont have to like it or support it.

You however have said that you are ok with dusky working for your college team, and frankly I find that shocking.
Mister Tonka wrote:
Question for Moon and Race:
It is clear that you think the justice system failed and that Vick's sentence was too lenient.

“Derecho”

Since: May 09

Braidwood, IL

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#74
Oct 9, 2012
 
Mister Tonka wrote:
I don't care to know who's working in the kitchen, but were that info provided to me, it would not alter my decision to eat there.
The killer of that girl from "Poltergeist" spent two years in prison and got a job as a cook at a restaurant when he got out.

The family picketed outside with signs like "a murderer prepared your food."

If you KNEW that someone who committed a heinous crime made your food, you would have no problem eating there? I don't care how good their pork fritters are, I would take my business elsewhere.

“I Am Mine”

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#75
Oct 9, 2012
 
RACE wrote:
No, you are saying those things, not me. You are the one drawing an arbitrary line between con or not. I am drawing a line at (as you pointed out) repentance for that crime. But to use your arbitrary line...
I would go to a restaurant if the cook was a xcon convicted of a ponzi scheme.
I would NOT go to a restaurant if the cook was a xcon convicted of tossing kittens into a wood chipper.
I dont have to worry about whether the cook in the second example will lose his job or feel like I am punishing him further, because you will be there dining anyway, so my decision to go somewhere else will be moot.
<quoted text>
Yes, I am drawing conclusions, but they are far from arbitrary.
PEllen

Chicago, IL

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#76
Oct 9, 2012
 
RACE wrote:
Either your not reading my posts, or you are choosing to ignore what I wrote.
I clearly stated that I have NO opinion on his sentence, none at all, I have never considered whether the sentence was too short, too long or just right.
I dont care about how much or little time he served, my issue (again) is with whether he should be allowed to represent the face of the NFL. I dont care if he got out and cured cancer or invented a flying car and became richer than bill gates.
My point is that the NFL has an image it presents to the world, and I dont think vick fits that image. Apparently others disagree and he is now employed in the NFL, well good for him, but I dont have to like it or support it.
You however have said that you are ok with dusky working for your college team, and frankly I find that shocking.
<quoted text>
My question would be , if the person committed an act ( criminal or otherwise) that you considered morally reprehensible, would they ever have the ability to redeem themselves in your eyes?

FWIW I think Mike Tyson committed a crime that was based on his character and that he will always have the possibility of doing something similar because his acts grew from something intrinsic to teh way he interacts with the world/women.

Michael Vick has a single skill as far as I can tell. Once he stops playing football he does not have the brains or training to do something non-physical. I don't know if he is remorseful for what he did or just sorry he got caught or thinks it was a big fuss by the PETA people over nothing.

I don't see that he is being touted as a spokesmen or role model for the NFC. He has a skill and he is using it. His skill happens to be one that is performed in the public eye. I don't see a difference between that and someone who is convicted of assault with a deadly (non gun) weapon going back to be a carpenter.

Vick will be toast and a footnote to football history soon enough. I'd rather he earned his money now than be on welfare.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#77
Oct 9, 2012
 
RACE wrote:
Either your not reading my posts, or you are choosing to ignore what I wrote.
I clearly stated that I have NO opinion on his sentence, none at all, I have never considered whether the sentence was too short, too long or just right.
I dont care about how much or little time he served, my issue (again) is with whether he should be allowed to represent the face of the NFL. I dont care if he got out and cured cancer or invented a flying car and became richer than bill gates.
My point is that the NFL has an image it presents to the world, and I dont think vick fits that image. Apparently others disagree and he is now employed in the NFL, well good for him, but I dont have to like it or support it.
You however have said that you are ok with dusky working for your college team, and frankly I find that shocking.
<quoted text>
now who is ignoring posts? I said would not want him on my coaching staff, but his hire would not be enough to make me stop rooting for my team.

“I Am Mine”

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#78
Oct 9, 2012
 
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
The killer of that girl from "Poltergeist" spent two years in prison and got a job as a cook at a restaurant when he got out.
The family picketed outside with signs like "a murderer prepared your food."
If you KNEW that someone who committed a heinous crime made your food, you would have no problem eating there? I don't care how good their pork fritters are, I would take my business elsewhere.
I believe in our criminal justice system and the concept that serving time is punishment enough for your crime. I can understand if people think the system failed if they think vick deserved more time, which is why i asked if there was a longer sentence that would satisfy them. I leave punishment of criminals up to the justice system and consider their debt paid once they are released. Isn't that the way its supposed to work?

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#79
Oct 9, 2012
 
PEllen wrote:
<quoted text>
My question would be , if the person committed an act ( criminal or otherwise) that you considered morally reprehensible, would they ever have the ability to redeem themselves in your eyes?
FWIW I think Mike Tyson committed a crime that was based on his character and that he will always have the possibility of doing something similar because his acts grew from something intrinsic to teh way he interacts with the world/women.
Michael Vick has a single skill as far as I can tell. Once he stops playing football he does not have the brains or training to do something non-physical. I don't know if he is remorseful for what he did or just sorry he got caught or thinks it was a big fuss by the PETA people over nothing.
I don't see that he is being touted as a spokesmen or role model for the NFC. He has a skill and he is using it. His skill happens to be one that is performed in the public eye. I don't see a difference between that and someone who is convicted of assault with a deadly (non gun) weapon going back to be a carpenter.
Vick will be toast and a footnote to football history soon enough. I'd rather he earned his money now than be on welfare.
Ditto

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#80
Oct 9, 2012
 
Race, if you position is that Vick deserves life in prison, ok(that seems to be moon's take). But if not, do you have an OBJECTIVE way to determine that he has been punished enough. I just can't beleive that you base it all on whether or not you think he is remorseful. With that method, you'd be granting absolution to the better actors as well as the truly remorsefiul.

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