Topix Chitown Regulars

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Wilmington, IL

#83699 Apr 6, 2013
PEllen wrote:
There is clearly a generational disconnect about teh responsibility for sexual activity in kids under 16
Dam straight! When is society gonna start holding young children accountable for their sexual deviance?! Instead we're punishing the poor adults who assault them.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Wilmington, IL

#83700 Apr 6, 2013
PEllen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04 /07/sports/ncaabasketball/rutg ers-officials-long-knew-of-coa ch-mike-rices-actions.html?hp
Oh Jess,if this is accurate, I am so sorry.
It reads like Penn State without the sex component.
WAAAHHH!

My coach yelled at me and threw a basketball at me!

WAHHHH!

Dam pussification of America....

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83701 Apr 7, 2013
PEllen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04 /07/sports/ncaabasketball/rutg ers-officials-long-knew-of-coa ch-mike-rices-actions.html?hp

Oh Jess,if this is accurate, I am so sorry.

It reads like Penn State without the sex component.
The President has been stressing that the coach has been fired "without cause". He is still collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars from his contract because of that term. There was cause to fire him!!!

I have said many times on FB, esp to my friends who are ardent supporters of Tim Pernetti, that an AD with no authority over his department is not effective and should not be in his position. He may say now that he wanted to fire Mike Rice immediately, but his job was to protect the student athletes and he failed.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83702 Apr 7, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>WAAAHHH!

My coach yelled at me and threw a basketball at me!

WAHHHH!

Dam pussification of America....
Did you watch the video?

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83703 Apr 7, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>WAAAHHH!

My coach yelled at me and threw a basketball at me!

WAHHHH!

Dam pussification of America....
I'll admit that I didn't play team sports at a high level. My husband did, though. He played basketball for one of the top programs in NJ - the same school that produced Andrew Bynum and Jay Williams. My husband's team made it to the state finals. He has also been an assistant coach at the varsity level.

He was very upset at what he saw on that video. He said the swearing was inappropriate, but the way Rice kicked and shoved those players and launched balls at them was so far over the line that he actually contacted one of our friends who is a faculty member at RU to ask if she signed the petition to fire the AD and President. He NEVER speaks up about our alma mater (won't admit that he went there), but he loves basketball and feels protective as a father and a former player.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#83704 Apr 7, 2013
PEllen wrote:
Here is teh link on teh CN situation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/nyregion/ge...
Don't you find that much of the debate can be dismissed by the fact...that 13 year old girls are not capable of any legal consent, if that is really a factor at all?....These main two offenders are 18, and judged solely responsible in our legal system......

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83705 Apr 7, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text>Don't you find that much of the debate can be dismissed by the fact...that 13 year old girls are not capable of any legal consent, if that is really a factor at all?....These main two offenders are 18, and judged solely responsible in our legal system......
But maybe we shouldn't dismiss the debate. The 18 year olds are high school students and if we take context into account, instead of only considering chronology, the students were all peers hanging out in the same social circles. When I was in high school (as a thirteen year old), I hung out with my friends' siblings and we were often at parties with seniors. People didn't ask to see ID before talking to someone. Parents can't let their 13 year olds out all night unchaperoned, then complain when they make adult decisions.

Were these laws written to punish kids who had just passed some arbitrary age and magically acquired some secret wisdom or were they intended to protect minors from predators with years of real world experience or from being forced into marriage before they could understand the implications?

I'm not defending anyone in this particular case. I'm actually pretty disgusted that 18 year olds are having sex with 13 year olds at all. I'm just saying that it is rarely black and white. Story from when I was in HS - I went to a party with one of my friends for her brother who was leaving for boot camp. He and his friends were super hot and really friendly and I'm a bit of a flirt, but I was really innocent and I guess that was pretty obvious (plus our parents raised us really well). I don't think any of those guys remember my name - my nickname was Jailbait for years. They were also super protective of me at parties where there were people from outside of our town - they would get upset if anyone even tries to offer me alcohol (I didn't drink in HS). Real friends look out for each other, they don't take advantage of each other.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#83706 Apr 7, 2013
Until and unless you change the laws...the point is moot......it's just opinion....

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83707 Apr 7, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
Until and unless you change the laws...the point is moot......it's just opinion....
In order to change laws, you start with a discussion of why they should be changed.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#83708 Apr 7, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
But maybe we shouldn't dismiss the debate. The 18 year olds are high school students and if we take context into account, instead of only considering chronology, the students were all peers hanging out in the same social circles. When I was in high school (as a thirteen year old), I hung out with my friends' siblings and we were often at parties with seniors. People didn't ask to see ID before talking to someone. Parents can't let their 13 year olds out all night unchaperoned, then complain when they make adult decisions.
Were these laws written to punish kids who had just passed some arbitrary age and magically acquired some secret wisdom or were they intended to protect minors from predators with years of real world experience or from being forced into marriage before they could understand the implications?
I'm not defending anyone in this particular case. I'm actually pretty disgusted that 18 year olds are having sex with 13 year olds at all. I'm just saying that it is rarely black and white. Story from when I was in HS - I went to a party with one of my friends for her brother who was leaving for boot camp. He and his friends were super hot and really friendly and I'm a bit of a flirt, but I was really innocent and I guess that was pretty obvious (plus our parents raised us really well). I don't think any of those guys remember my name - my nickname was Jailbait for years. They were also super protective of me at parties where there were people from outside of our town - they would get upset if anyone even tries to offer me alcohol (I didn't drink in HS). Real friends look out for each other, they don't take advantage of each other.
...Sounds like, in a round-about way here....a law making 13 year olds...somewhat fair game....at least to their older peers, is the change in law you might be suggesting? arbitrary age?...really?......

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83709 Apr 7, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text>...Sounds like, in a round-about way here....a law making 13 year olds...somewhat fair game....at least to their older peers, is the change in law you might be suggesting? arbitrary age?...really?......
There are already states that limit prosecution of statutory rape if there is a certain number of years difference between the participants http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summa...

And do you think that an 18 year old knows more than someone who is 17 years and 6 months old? They are treated differently by the legal system unless the judge makes an exception.

I am not outright suggesting that we change the laws. I am saying that we should discuss whether they are still appropriate.

“What's it to ya?”

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#83710 Apr 7, 2013
On 18 year olds and them having rational decision making skills...

My nephew at age 18 joined a gang. A real gang not just some punk kids messing around.

The kind of gang you see portrayed in tv shows about gang loyalty behind prison walls, the kind of gang they have "gang task forces" for, a gang with a well known all over the country name.

Yeah, they know what they are doing at 18...just saying.

In the meantime I have located a program that de-gangs kids who want out (he does) and removes gang tats free of charge. Now to get him up here with a place to stay. He can not stay here. That's too much for me.

Oh yeah and first week of school? Meh....reading reading reading and constant demands on my time from my sister. She is a two year old.
Charles Barkley

Hoffman Estates, IL

#83711 Apr 7, 2013
PEllen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04 /07/sports/ncaabasketball/rutg ers-officials-long-knew-of-coa ch-mike-rices-actions.html?hp
Oh Jess,if this is accurate, I am so sorry.
It reads like Penn State without the sex component.
My guess is he didn't recruit from the hood! Suburban-type kids with their one shot at college basketball will take that abuse but, one he was one tough urban kid away from getting seriously hurt.

“...,to wit”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83712 Apr 7, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
<quoted text> Don't you find that much of the debate can be dismissed by the fact...that 13 year old girls are not capable of any legal consent, if that is really a factor at all?....These main two offenders are 18, and judged solely responsible in our legal system......
Choosing a legal "age of consent" is something imposed by a give society and does not appear to be dependent on chronological age in an absolute sense.

For example, Romeo and Juliet were thought to around 14 or 15.
Mary married Joseph and was already pregnant as a very young teenager although the circumstances were, ah, unique. The point is that the her age was not an issue.
If you read history, you know there have been some fairly important women who were married at a young age and bred as soon as they reached menarche
More currently, in the Jewish tradition, 13 is considered the coming of age with all that implies.
Mimi could probably give more examples where imputed maturity and social responsibility aka coming of age is more closely tied to biological maturation than an arbitrary age.

My point is that this construct seems more closely descriptive of the CN teenagers conduct than the legal and parental one.

“...,to wit”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83713 Apr 7, 2013
Charles Barkley wrote:
<quoted text>My guess is he didn't recruit from the hood! Suburban-type kids with their one shot at college basketball will take that abuse but, one he was one tough urban kid away from getting seriously hurt.
Interesting point. If he had urban kids on the team the kids would have addressed the problem without going through the chain of command.
Do you find that consistent with the discipline of a team that the members are taught to follow the coaches orders rather than make decisions themselves?
Charles Barkley

Hoffman Estates, IL

#83714 Apr 7, 2013
PEllen wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting point. If he had urban kids on the team the kids would have addressed the problem without going through the chain of command.
Do you find that consistent with the discipline of a team that the members are taught to follow the coaches orders rather than make decisions themselves?
I think all athletes by that level know teamwork and discipline and may also know some coaches who are complete tools. But, they also know a psychopath when they see one. Sadly, they may not want to throw their college career away because of one. There's tough and there is crazy. This guy might fancy himself a Marine DI but, it's Rutgers and it's basketball, not the battlefield or Indiana and Bobby Knight...

“...,to wit”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83715 Apr 7, 2013
Charles Barkley wrote:
<quoted text>I think all athletes by that level know teamwork and discipline and may also know some coaches who are complete tools. But, they also know a psychopath when they see one. Sadly, they may not want to throw their college career away because of one. There's tough and there is crazy. This guy might fancy himself a Marine DI but, it's Rutgers and it's basketball, not the battlefield or Indiana and Bobby Knight...
You invoke Bobby Knight. Every basketball coach in creation has to know how he ended his association with IN

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Wilmington, IL

#83716 Apr 7, 2013
PEllen wrote:
My point is that this construct seems more closely descriptive of the CN teenagers conduct than the legal and parental one.
Your point is laying culpability on the 13 yr olds. I don't care what Jewish tradition or Romeo and Juliet say, society has determined an age of consent for a reason. Again, we can't allow a child to make hizzer own decision on what to eat, but they can make their own decisions on something like sex, which certainly requires no maturity!

Your argument is like blaming a woman for being raped because she wore a mini-skirt to the bar. Or a guy saying he didn't molest that ten year old, she seduced him and he was powerless to stop it. Pull your head out and wise up, please.

“...,to wit”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#83717 Apr 7, 2013
edogxxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Your point is laying culpability on the 13 yr olds. I don't care what Jewish tradition or Romeo and Juliet say, society has determined an age of consent for a reason. Again, we can't allow a child to make hizzer own decision on what to eat, but they can make their own decisions on something like sex, which certainly requires no maturity!
Your argument is like blaming a woman for being raped because she wore a mini-skirt to the bar. Or a guy saying he didn't molest that ten year old, she seduced him and he was powerless to stop it. Pull your head out and wise up, please.
No, you are taking the point to an unntended extreme. What I am saying ( and have said before in otehr ocnversations here) is that there is a point at which personal responsibility should be factored in. Call it age of consent. Perhaps comparative responsibility is younger.

If you are younger than I think 7 you are not legally responsible for your actions if you run over a little old lady with your bike. Between 7-12 they will look at circumstances to see if you are culpable. The older you are the more responsible you are held. Iam suggesting that should apply in a situation like the CN case when considering what the girls role in as balanced against the culpability of the boys.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#83718 Apr 7, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
There are already states that limit prosecution of statutory rape if there is a certain number of years difference between the participants http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summa...
And do you think that an 18 year old knows more than someone who is 17 years and 6 months old? They are treated differently by the legal system unless the judge makes an exception.
I am not outright suggesting that we change the laws. I am saying that we should discuss whether they are still appropriate.
Bottom line is that the states have established at what age, you become totally responsible as an adult, for your actions....and it is 18.....also, would'nt you say that these cases really transend the classic statuatory rape? Statuatory rape has mostly been the 20 year old guy and his 14 year old girlfriend, as in more consensual than rape.....Sometime's they seem to minimalize the true violence, that is rape....

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