“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#82353 Mar 15, 2013
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But doesn't it say something about him that he only re-examined his opinion because it affected his life? What does that say about his decision making ability when it comes to other issues that he will not have hands on experience with?
Most people don't bother to really reexamine their opinions until something external strikes a chord with them personally. That is why you find people often change their thinking after having children, caring for an aging parent or experiencing a major illness.

I am impressed because of how well and how publicly he expressed his change of opinion. It is now a more educated position than previously.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#82354 Mar 15, 2013
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>But doesn't it say something about him that he only re-examined his opinion because it affected his life? What does that say about his decision making ability when it comes to other issues that he will not have hands on experience with?
I forgot to address your second point - I believe we should all be open to learning new things about ourselves and others. This topic happened to hit close to home for the Senator, but hopefully his response helps him to realize that none of us is infallible and that he applies this knowledge and empathy to other issues he is face with.

“FD&S is no way to be.”

Since: Feb 13

Knoxville, TN

#82355 Mar 15, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesn't matter to me how a person comes to their decision on this subject, whether it is because they learn that a family member is gay or because they slipped on a banana peel and wake up with a change of heart after their concussion.
We are all products of our environments and experiences. The important thing is that we reexamine our beliefs and opinions from time to time, take a moral inventory if you will.
You think his stated reason for the change in his public position doesn't matter? I could not disagree more. It's in the same vein as apologizing because someone makes you, not because you thought about it and realized your error on your own and have genuine regret. If this guy's son hadn't come out to him, he'd still be trying to suppress the rights of every other gay person in Ohio. It would take quite the set of cajones OR massive ignorance to continue with a public platform of being anti-gay marriage while having a son who came out.

To me motivation is just as important as the decision because it demonstrates a person's true mindset and goes to how reliable they will be.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#82356 Mar 15, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I forgot to address your second point - I believe we should all be open to learning new things about ourselves and others. This topic happened to hit close to home for the Senator, but hopefully his response helps him to realize that none of us is infallible and that he applies this knowledge and empathy to other issues he is face with.
I agree with you on these things for normal people -- but for people who are representing the people I think they owe it to society to review their feelings and own what they promote. I expect better and more thoughtfulness.

It is great, though, that he did give it further thought. I hope he takes this as a lesson to review many of his thoughts on our countries issues because that is his responsibility that he took on in my view.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#82357 Mar 15, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Most people don't bother to really reexamine their opinions until something external strikes a chord with them personally..
Just playing devil's advocate, but is that the type of person that we want making policy decisions? Someone who does not look at things from another perspective until it affects them personally? One could argue that a person like that is putting him and his family's interests above that of the general public.

Since: Mar 09

Miami, FL

#82358 Mar 15, 2013
I'm with Jess. No one's opinions form in a vacuum.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#82359 Mar 15, 2013
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>Just playing devil's advocate, but is that the type of person that we want making policy decisions? Someone who does not look at things from another perspective until it affects them personally?
I didn't hear fair and balanced, Sam (who is NOT a democrat, but seemingly only b1tches about republicans) b1tching about how Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling when he was a Senator, but had a change of heart once he became President. Let me ask you (I'm just playing devils advocate, btw), is that the type of person we want making policy decisions? Who'd you vote for, btw?

Why is okay for Obama to change his tune, and Sam is quiet about it, but a Republican does so and he gets called out by her, you, and Angela?

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#82360 Mar 15, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Most people don't bother to really reexamine their opinions until something external strikes a chord with them personally. That is why you find people often change their thinking after having children, caring for an aging parent or experiencing a major illness.
I am impressed because of how well and how publicly he expressed his change of opinion. It is now a more educated position than previously.
I understand where you're coming from.

In a way, I agree with you, but mostly, I'm sick of this denial of equal civil rights to an entire segment -- a tax-paying segment -- of society.

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#82361 Mar 15, 2013
http://news.yahoo.com/gay-family-members-easy...

I think this paragraph from the article sums up what Sam is trying to say.

"Critics describe Portman's announcement as morally flawed, since he seemed unable to feel empathy for gays until the issue hit home. "Portman ought to be able to recognize that, even if he changed his mind on gay marriage owing to personal experience, the logic stands irrespective of it," writes Jonathan Chait at New York. "Support for gay marriage would be right even if he didn't have a gay son. There's little sign that any such reasoning has crossed his mind.""

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#82362 Mar 15, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't hear fair and balanced, Sam (who is NOT a democrat, but seemingly only b1tches about republicans) b1tching about how Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling when he was a Senator, but had a change of heart once he became President. Let me ask you (I'm just playing devils advocate, btw), is that the type of person we want making policy decisions? Who'd you vote for, btw?
Why is okay for Obama to change his tune, and Sam is quiet about it, but a Republican does so and he gets called out by her, you, and Angela?
I didn't call anybody out.

I also don't compare debt ceiling/fiscal policy changes to *civil rights* issues.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#82363 Mar 15, 2013
I really enjoyed Sam going on about how each issue stands on it's own merits ... like she is the epitome of impartiality when it comes to politics.

Sorry, you can't claim you are independent and impartial when you constantly focus on the faults of members of one party, but turn a blind eye to the faults of the other (and probably vote for that other party every chance you get). It doesn't even pass the straight face test.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#82364 Mar 15, 2013
Mister Tonka wrote:
<quoted text>Just playing devil's advocate, but is that the type of person that we want making policy decisions? Someone who does not look at things from another perspective until it affects them personally? One could argue that a person like that is putting him and his family's interests above that of the general public.
I would rather have someone who changes his position because of personal interactions than a politician whose primary deciding factors are lobbyists and money.

“Not a real reg”

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#82365 Mar 15, 2013
Aisle Sitter wrote:
<quoted text>
DO NOT, under any reasonable circumstances, use Lot if you cna... My SIL is from poland, and *she* hates it... they are sooo messed up. if you must, as in you already have reservations, call the day ahead or so to make sure you have a seat, be patient and bring a native polish speaker if you can. my bro, SIL and parents took Lot one time, and they all swore never again. SIL wonders even why her mohter likes it (beyond the polish-speaking staff).
As for train travel, what info are you looking for? I took a commuter-type train to antoehr country, and my parents will be going over night to a different country in a few weeks, so i can get their info too...
Taking LOT. my cousin's wife is from Poland and takes it all the time without problems, but she speaks polish. I guess I just have to cross my fingers that all goes well. I will call ahead. Have to make a connecting flight to Barcelona and that's my main concern. I will only be on "homeland" ground for an hour or so if all goes well.

As to the train, the one concern I have is the suitcase. I hate the thought of having to put it and take it down in the overhead several times a day. There are two and three changes during one trip. Do all the trains have a space for suitcases or only the high speed ones and not the regional trains? We'll be on both. But I heard they could be stolen from the floor space. Someone suggested that we take something to tie them together which would make it harder. Other then that maybe any insider tips. We're not taking any overnight trains.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#82366 Mar 15, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't call anybody out.
I also don't compare debt ceiling/fiscal policy changes to *civil rights* issues.
You said you agreed with Sam, who was calling him out.

I wouldn't compare them either. Why don't you go ask the people who live in Greece if they'd rather have fiscal stability and prosperity for their entire nation or gay marriage for 6% or whatever of their population. Given this and your comment above, it's hilarious that you are even criticizing others for changing their tune when something hits home that causes them to re-examine their position. I'm sure, like you, many folks in Greece thought all sorts of things, including gay rights, were more important than fiscal policy, until it hit home.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#82367 Mar 15, 2013
squishymama wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/gay-fami ly-members-easy-politicians-15 4500736.html
I think this paragraph from the article sums up what Sam is trying to say.
"Critics describe Portman's announcement as morally flawed, since he seemed unable to feel empathy for gays until the issue hit home. "Portman ought to be able to recognize that, even if he changed his mind on gay marriage owing to personal experience, the logic stands irrespective of it," writes Jonathan Chait at New York. "Support for gay marriage would be right even if he didn't have a gay son. There's little sign that any such reasoning has crossed his mind.""
Anybody could have told Obama that raising the debt ceiling when he voted against it as a Senator was the right thing to do, because the consequences of failing to do so would have been too disastrous. This didn't stop him from voting not to do so.

He only changed his tune once he became President and he was the head honcho and if the ship went down on his watch the blame would have fallen squarely on him, which would have been his legacy.

He had no empathy if Bush suffered that fate while he was President. He also had no empathy for the dreadful consequences that all American's would have suffered if the debt ceiling were not raised.

There is little sign that any such reasoning crossed his mind, until he was President.

Who'd you vote for?

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#82368 Mar 15, 2013
Who'd the person who wrote that yahoo article vote for?

Alright all the Pots in here (and on yahoo), I'd like you to meet Kettle.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Wilmington, IL

#82369 Mar 15, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I would rather have someone who changes his position because of personal interactions than a politician whose primary deciding factors are lobbyists and money.
Or votes. What do you make of Obama's flip-flop on gay marriage?

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#82370 Mar 15, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Anybody could have told Obama that raising the debt ceiling when he voted against it as a Senator was the right thing to do, because the consequences of failing to do so would have been too disastrous. This didn't stop him from voting not to do so.
He only changed his tune once he became President and he was the head honcho and if the ship went down on his watch the blame would have fallen squarely on him, which would have been his legacy.
He had no empathy if Bush suffered that fate while he was President. He also had no empathy for the dreadful consequences that all American's would have suffered if the debt ceiling were not raised.
There is little sign that any such reasoning crossed his mind, until he was President.
Who'd you vote for?
I only posted that because I happened to see it just as this discussion got started.

I will agree with Angela that decisions about fiscal policy are not the same as decisions on civil rights.

And who I voted for is none of your business.

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#82371 Mar 15, 2013
squishymama wrote:
<quoted text>I will agree with Angela that decisions about fiscal policy are not the same as decisions on civil rights.
So, if it's an issue that isn't important to you (even though every economist would disagree with you and even though Obama's own actions show that you are wrong seeing as how he spent far more time and energy to prevent us from defaulting on our debt than he has trying to advance gay marriage (that fact alone should tell you and Angela that you are clueless if you think gay marriage is more important than whether we default on our debt)) it's okay if someone changes their tune once something hits home that causes them to re-examine their position, but if it's an issue that is important to you, it's not okay? Do you know what a hypocrite is?

Not only should Obama's own priorities show you how wrong and Angela are about what is more important, but the people of Greece and every other nation in the history of mankind who have experienced severe economic criticizes because of poor fiscal policy would disagree with you.

If you and your husband lost your jobs, lost your retirement account, and everything you owned, because of fiscal mismanagement, like folks in Greece have, I'm pretty sure you'd say gee, I wish we had elected politicians who focused more on sound fiscal policy, even if that meant less focus on gay marriage. You wouldn't realize this, tho, until it hit home. But it would be okay for you, because you are you (duh) but it's not okay for others to not realize things until they hit home. Do you know what a hypocrite is?(You don't need to answer, like my asking you who you voted for, it's rhetorical).

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#82373 Mar 15, 2013
Sublime1 wrote:
<quoted text>
So, if it's an issue that isn't important to you (even though every economist would disagree with you and even though Obama's own actions show that you are wrong seeing as how he spent far more time and energy to prevent us from defaulting on our debt than he has trying to advance gay marriage (that fact alone should tell you and Angela that you are clueless if you think gay marriage is more important than whether we default on our debt)) it's okay if someone changes their tune once something hits home that causes them to re-examine their position, but if it's an issue that is important to you, it's not okay? Do you know what a hypocrite is?
Not only should Obama's own priorities show you how wrong and Angela are about what is more important, but the people of Greece and every other nation in the history of mankind who have experienced severe economic criticizes because of poor fiscal policy would disagree with you.
If you and your husband lost your jobs, lost your retirement account, and everything you owned, because of fiscal mismanagement, like folks in Greece have, I'm pretty sure you'd say gee, I wish we had elected politicians who focused more on sound fiscal policy, even if that meant less focus on gay marriage. You wouldn't realize this, tho, until it hit home. But it would be okay for you, because you are you (duh) but it's not okay for others to not realize things until they hit home. Do you know what a hypocrite is?(You don't need to answer, like my asking you who you voted for, it's rhetorical).
Not the same does not equal not as important. But that's OK Sub, don't let what I really said prevent you from ranting.

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