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“bELieve”

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#79314
Jan 30, 2013
 
RACE wrote:
<quoted text>Illegally is a broad term (giving a rifle to a kid under 18 is illegal, but if he does not go wonky till after 18, was the gun obtained illegally, even though at present he could legally posses the weapon).

A better stat would be how many lawful gun owners (crazies not included), actually commit a homicide with their weapon.
But that is part of my point. In your scenario, the kid could obtain the gun legally, but he didn't. Tightening the laws won't make any difference, because he wasn't following the ones that were already in existence.

People are more impressed by big numbers and I suspect that the majority of gun homicides are committed by guns that were obtained illegally. Most of the murders aren't mass homicides, they are single or double homicides that don't attract as much attention, especially when they occur in urban areas. From reading the articles in the paper, most of those murders aren't committed using "assault" weapons.

I would like to have educated conversations on this topic, especially among my political associates. My opinion is that our focus needs to be on mental health and on the values that we are teaching our children (words and actions as a society), but I need to be able to back up my discussions with numbers explaining why empty legislation is not the solution.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

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#79315
Jan 30, 2013
 
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows...

Excerpts:

"An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal."

"The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity.""

"ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking."
Thanks! That article helps.
Sam I Am

Huntingdon, TN

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#79316
Jan 30, 2013
 

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RACE wrote:
Illegally is a broad term (giving a rifle to a kid under 18 is illegal, but if he does not go wonky till after 18, was the gun obtained illegally, even though at present he could legally posses the weapon).
A better stat would be how many lawful gun owners (crazies not included), actually commit a homicide with their weapon.
<quoted text>
Don't give your brain a cramp doing those mental gymnastics. Illegally is a broad term? What, so there's illegal, legal and kinda legal? Her question was pretty simple: How many homicides were committed by people who got their guns illegally? Whether or not someone obtained their gun legally is pretty simple to determine. And if someone got their gun illegally when they were 18, and they took no steps to properly register it after they turned 18, then they still own the gun illegally.

Is it your position that anyone who commits murder with a gun is crazy? You keep citing this carve-out for "crazies," like if it weren't for the "crazies" everything would be o.k. with guns and people. You realize, don't you, that there are people who are perfectly sane who are just bad. The way you can rationalize doing things that others view as wrong, they can rationalize killing someone. And they're not crazy, otherwise we'd have a lot more mental institutions and a lot fewer jails.

And you act like people who are crazy are always crazy and are readily detectable. Just like your teen who can't own a gun legally but then turns 18 and can if he does so properly, a person can be walking around perfectly normal, they get a gun legally, then something happens - physical trauma, emotional trauma, etc.- and they turn "crazy." And they still have the gun. So stop acting like not selling guns to "crazies" anymore is any better of a fix than anything else than has been discussed. Just like limiting the size of magazines, "stopping the crazies" is just a small part of the bigger solution.
Sam I Am

Huntingdon, TN

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#79317
Jan 30, 2013
 
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
I remember watching a news program about an East Coast city (I wish I could remember which city, but I don’t) that established a “three strikes” law. But part of that included funding to inform the public about this law – that if you get caught with a gun while committing a felony and it’s your third strike, you are going to prison for a minimum of X (20, 25) years, just for starters. They put up billboards, signs in bus stops, really informed the lower income parts of the city.
And the use of guns in crimes dropped dramatically. The cops and prosecutors said “No one wants to go to prison. So while these guys didn’t stop committing crimes, at least they didn’t carry guns as much as in the past.” Which is a very good thing. I see that measure as a win all around.
Agreed.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

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#79318
Jan 30, 2013
 
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text>What? Illegal where? Minors in Minnesota can have rifles.
In NJ - Rifles and shotguns - 18 years old, handguns and pistols - 21 years old

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

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#79319
Jan 30, 2013
 
Sounds to me like you just said it very well.
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
But that is part of my point. In your scenario, the kid could obtain the gun legally, but he didn't. Tightening the laws won't make any difference, because he wasn't following the ones that were already in existence.
People are more impressed by big numbers and I suspect that the majority of gun homicides are committed by guns that were obtained illegally. Most of the murders aren't mass homicides, they are single or double homicides that don't attract as much attention, especially when they occur in urban areas. From reading the articles in the paper, most of those murders aren't committed using "assault" weapons.
I would like to have educated conversations on this topic, especially among my political associates. My opinion is that our focus needs to be on mental health and on the values that we are teaching our children (words and actions as a society), but I need to be able to back up my discussions with numbers explaining why empty legislation is not the solution.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

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#79320
Jan 30, 2013
 
first hit
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article...
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text>
What? Illegal where? Minors in Minnesota can have rifles.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me!

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#79321
Jan 30, 2013
 
Florida has 10/20/life but I dont think it seems to be much of a deterrent.
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
I remember watching a news program about an East Coast city (I wish I could remember which city, but I don’t) that established a “three strikes” law. But part of that included funding to inform the public about this law – that if you get caught with a gun while committing a felony and it’s your third strike, you are going to prison for a minimum of X (20, 25) years, just for starters. They put up billboards, signs in bus stops, really informed the lower income parts of the city.
And the use of guns in crimes dropped dramatically. The cops and prosecutors said “No one wants to go to prison. So while these guys didn’t stop committing crimes, at least they didn’t carry guns as much as in the past.” Which is a very good thing. I see that measure as a win all around.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

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#79322
Jan 30, 2013
 

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Great!
Sam thinks that committing murder is a perfectly sane act.

Murder, its not just for crazies anymore!

What an effin dolt.

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

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#79323
Jan 30, 2013
 

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I realize that many people like her and think she's really sexy, but I'm sick of Beyonce.

Thank goodness we watch the Puppy Bowl.
Sam I Am

Huntingdon, TN

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#79324
Jan 30, 2013
 

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RACE wrote:
Great!
Sam thinks that committing murder is a perfectly sane act.
Murder, its not just for crazies anymore!
What an effin dolt.
So, to clarify, your position is that everyone who commits a murder is insane, correct? It is impossible for a sane person to be evil, correct?

I'll give you this: No matter how ridiculous, unfounded and nonsensical your positions are, you cling to them like a life raft in the middle of the Pacific.

I understand that it's easier for you to just paint everything in broad strokes/simple terms - that way your head don't hurts too much from thinkin'- so you can blame a problem all on something that doesn't challange your position, but the world just isn't that way.
Sam I Am

Huntingdon, TN

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#79325
Jan 30, 2013
 
squishymama wrote:
I realize that many people like her and think she's really sexy, but I'm sick of Beyonce.
Thank goodness we watch the Puppy Bowl.
Are you more sick of her or the Kardashians?

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

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#79326
Jan 30, 2013
 
RACE wrote:
Great!
Sam thinks that committing murder is a perfectly sane act.
Murder, its not just for crazies anymore!
What an effin dolt.
C'mon RACE. I think you know she's trying to point out that in some places in this country, killing people is not seen as crazy.

The gang violence we're seeing in Chicago is seen by most as crazy, but the people living in it do not. It is perfectly normal and natural for them to solve problems and end disputes with the use of a gun.

I don't get it and probably never will, but I didn't grow up in a place where violence was just an excepted part of everyday life.

Since: Jul 10

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#79327
Jan 30, 2013
 

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Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
But that is part of my point. In your scenario, the kid could obtain the gun legally, but he didn't. Tightening the laws won't make any difference, because he wasn't following the ones that were already in existence.
People are more impressed by big numbers and I suspect that the majority of gun homicides are committed by guns that were obtained illegally. Most of the murders aren't mass homicides, they are single or double homicides that don't attract as much attention, especially when they occur in urban areas. From reading the articles in the paper, most of those murders aren't committed using "assault" weapons.
I would like to have educated conversations on this topic, especially among my political associates. My opinion is that our focus needs to be on mental health and on the values that we are teaching our children (words and actions as a society), but I need to be able to back up my discussions with numbers explaining why empty legislation is not the solution.
In the 1999 Columbine shooting, all the guns were obtained illegally, partially because the murderers were not old enough to buy them, but the assault rifle ban in place at the time didn't apply to any of them. The Carbine and the TEC-DC9 were legal to buy if they had been old enough. They also carried 2 sawed-off shotguns, which have been illegal for years. Shotguns are legal and, so far, nobody is talking about banning them. But shortening them, in order to make them easier to hide, is illegal. I know that Columbine has often been used as justification for a ban, but it's a faulty justification. There was a ban in place at the time, and it was irrelevant. There was also a lot of speculation at the time that they were lashing out to get even with those who had bullied them, and therefore we should really focus on stopping that kind of behavior. I'm all for the idea of eliminating bullying, but according to journals the two boys kept, they weren't victims. In fact, they bragged about being the bullies themselves.
Mental health is obviously a concern, but in most instances that I have heard of, there was no issue large enough to actually do anything, such as commitment, before the person snapped and starting killing people.
I don't hold video games or movies responsible, but we have become a culture that is less concerned about others. For one thing, it is no longer the individual's responsibility to worry about their neighbors...the government can handle that soooo much better. And the internet doesn't help at all either, or maybe just the way we use it. People say such foul, disgusting things to one another, that I would hope they wouldn't say face-to-face, and that just helps dehumanize others. Of course, the gang mentality that has spread so much, confusing fear and intimidation with respect, doesn't help either.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that the empty feel-good legislation isn't going to solve anything.

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

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#79328
Jan 30, 2013
 
Sam I Am wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you more sick of her or the Kardashians?
Hmmm...

I think it's a tie.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

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#79329
Jan 30, 2013
 

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squishymama wrote:
I realize that many people like her and think she's really sexy, but I'm sick of Beyonce.
Thank goodness we watch the Puppy Bowl.
Perhaps it is due to the programs you watch? TMZ? Entertainment tonight? Other Hollywood 'gossip' shows perhaps?
I can't get sick of her because the things I watch/read rarely have anything to do with her. Same with the Kardashians. Or those 'real' housewives shows. Or Jersey Shore. Or Honey Boo Boo.
Sam I Am

Huntingdon, TN

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#79330
Jan 30, 2013
 

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squishymama wrote:
<quoted text>
C'mon RACE. I think you know she's trying to point out that in some places in this country, killing people is not seen as crazy.
The gang violence we're seeing in Chicago is seen by most as crazy, but the people living in it do not. It is perfectly normal and natural for them to solve problems and end disputes with the use of a gun.
I don't get it and probably never will, but I didn't grow up in a place where violence was just an excepted part of everyday life.
Somewhere deep down he probably knows what I was saying, but the I-hope-she-gets-cancer part of him isn't very rational.

“It made sense at the time....”

Since: May 09

Schaumburg, IL

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#79332
Jan 30, 2013
 

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squishymama wrote:
<quoted text>
C'mon RACE. I think you know she's trying to point out that in some places in this country, killing people is not seen as crazy.
The gang violence we're seeing in Chicago is seen by most as crazy, but the people living in it do not. It is perfectly normal and natural for them to solve problems and end disputes with the use of a gun.
I don't get it and probably never will, but I didn't grow up in a place where violence was just an excepted part of everyday life.
given this, there are different definitions of "crazy". There is a difference between clinincally/judicially insane and "whacked"... teh stuff in chicago is mostly whacked, especially the gang violence, whereas the incident in aurora, co and sandyhook is in the neighborhood of clinically/judicially insane.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

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#79333
Jan 30, 2013
 

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If its not seen as crazy then why is it illegal? Because we as a society have decided that murder is an aborhent act, an act of an unbalanced mind and must be punished in the harshest way possible.

Murder is not normal, and you cant justify it by citing their poor upbringing, or environment.

If a person sees murder as normal, they are crazy. I cite sam as a perfect example.
squishymama wrote:
<quoted text>
C'mon RACE. I think you know she's trying to point out that in some places in this country, killing people is not seen as crazy.
The gang violence we're seeing in Chicago is seen by most as crazy, but the people living in it do not. It is perfectly normal and natural for them to solve problems and end disputes with the use of a gun.
I don't get it and probably never will, but I didn't grow up in a place where violence was just an excepted part of everyday life.

“reign in blood”

Since: May 09

Braidwood, IL

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#79334
Jan 30, 2013
 
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
I remember watching a news program about an East Coast city (I wish I could remember which city, but I don’t) that established a “three strikes” law. But part of that included funding to inform the public about this law – that if you get caught with a gun while committing a felony and it’s your third strike, you are going to prison for a minimum of X (20, 25) years, just for starters.
The "three strikes law" was overturned by liberals in California. It's not necessarily for gun crimes but "felonies." Liberals argued that should not include non-violent felonies such as burglary. They feared someone could go to prison for life for stealing a candy bar for the third time (which is untrue.) The US Supreme Court upholds the "three strikes" rule, but doesn't explain or lay out any limitations and rather leaves that to the individual states.

My personal view is that if you commit three felonies, you should go to prison for life. Society doesn't need people like you in it.

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