Topix Chitown Regulars

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#79310 Jan 30, 2013
So, it doesn't really answer your specific question re: homicides, but it does paint a good picture about how guns get moved around.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#79311 Jan 30, 2013
RACE wrote:
Illegally is a broad term (giving a rifle to a kid under 18 is illegal, but if he does not go wonky till after 18, was the gun obtained illegally, even though at present he could legally posses the weapon).
What? Illegal where? Minors in Minnesota can have rifles.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#79312 Jan 30, 2013
I remember watching a news program about an East Coast city (I wish I could remember which city, but I don’t) that established a “three strikes” law. But part of that included funding to inform the public about this law – that if you get caught with a gun while committing a felony and it’s your third strike, you are going to prison for a minimum of X (20, 25) years, just for starters. They put up billboards, signs in bus stops, really informed the lower income parts of the city.

And the use of guns in crimes dropped dramatically. The cops and prosecutors said “No one wants to go to prison. So while these guys didn’t stop committing crimes, at least they didn’t carry guns as much as in the past.” Which is a very good thing. I see that measure as a win all around.

Toj

“Where is Everyone?”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#79313 Jan 30, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
I'm using y'all as a resource and sounding board because I'm being lazy. Does anyone have stats on how many gun homicides were committed by people who obtained their guns illegally?
I thought this was a very thoughtful, well put together article.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows...

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#79314 Jan 30, 2013
RACE wrote:
<quoted text>Illegally is a broad term (giving a rifle to a kid under 18 is illegal, but if he does not go wonky till after 18, was the gun obtained illegally, even though at present he could legally posses the weapon).

A better stat would be how many lawful gun owners (crazies not included), actually commit a homicide with their weapon.
But that is part of my point. In your scenario, the kid could obtain the gun legally, but he didn't. Tightening the laws won't make any difference, because he wasn't following the ones that were already in existence.

People are more impressed by big numbers and I suspect that the majority of gun homicides are committed by guns that were obtained illegally. Most of the murders aren't mass homicides, they are single or double homicides that don't attract as much attention, especially when they occur in urban areas. From reading the articles in the paper, most of those murders aren't committed using "assault" weapons.

I would like to have educated conversations on this topic, especially among my political associates. My opinion is that our focus needs to be on mental health and on the values that we are teaching our children (words and actions as a society), but I need to be able to back up my discussions with numbers explaining why empty legislation is not the solution.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#79315 Jan 30, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows...

Excerpts:

"An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal."

"The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity.""

"ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking."
Thanks! That article helps.
Sam I Am

Cedar Grove, TN

#79316 Jan 30, 2013
RACE wrote:
Illegally is a broad term (giving a rifle to a kid under 18 is illegal, but if he does not go wonky till after 18, was the gun obtained illegally, even though at present he could legally posses the weapon).
A better stat would be how many lawful gun owners (crazies not included), actually commit a homicide with their weapon.
<quoted text>
Don't give your brain a cramp doing those mental gymnastics. Illegally is a broad term? What, so there's illegal, legal and kinda legal? Her question was pretty simple: How many homicides were committed by people who got their guns illegally? Whether or not someone obtained their gun legally is pretty simple to determine. And if someone got their gun illegally when they were 18, and they took no steps to properly register it after they turned 18, then they still own the gun illegally.

Is it your position that anyone who commits murder with a gun is crazy? You keep citing this carve-out for "crazies," like if it weren't for the "crazies" everything would be o.k. with guns and people. You realize, don't you, that there are people who are perfectly sane who are just bad. The way you can rationalize doing things that others view as wrong, they can rationalize killing someone. And they're not crazy, otherwise we'd have a lot more mental institutions and a lot fewer jails.

And you act like people who are crazy are always crazy and are readily detectable. Just like your teen who can't own a gun legally but then turns 18 and can if he does so properly, a person can be walking around perfectly normal, they get a gun legally, then something happens - physical trauma, emotional trauma, etc.- and they turn "crazy." And they still have the gun. So stop acting like not selling guns to "crazies" anymore is any better of a fix than anything else than has been discussed. Just like limiting the size of magazines, "stopping the crazies" is just a small part of the bigger solution.
Sam I Am

Cedar Grove, TN

#79317 Jan 30, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
I remember watching a news program about an East Coast city (I wish I could remember which city, but I don’t) that established a “three strikes” law. But part of that included funding to inform the public about this law – that if you get caught with a gun while committing a felony and it’s your third strike, you are going to prison for a minimum of X (20, 25) years, just for starters. They put up billboards, signs in bus stops, really informed the lower income parts of the city.
And the use of guns in crimes dropped dramatically. The cops and prosecutors said “No one wants to go to prison. So while these guys didn’t stop committing crimes, at least they didn’t carry guns as much as in the past.” Which is a very good thing. I see that measure as a win all around.
Agreed.

“bELieve”

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#79318 Jan 30, 2013
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text>What? Illegal where? Minors in Minnesota can have rifles.
In NJ - Rifles and shotguns - 18 years old, handguns and pistols - 21 years old

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#79319 Jan 30, 2013
Sounds to me like you just said it very well.
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
But that is part of my point. In your scenario, the kid could obtain the gun legally, but he didn't. Tightening the laws won't make any difference, because he wasn't following the ones that were already in existence.
People are more impressed by big numbers and I suspect that the majority of gun homicides are committed by guns that were obtained illegally. Most of the murders aren't mass homicides, they are single or double homicides that don't attract as much attention, especially when they occur in urban areas. From reading the articles in the paper, most of those murders aren't committed using "assault" weapons.
I would like to have educated conversations on this topic, especially among my political associates. My opinion is that our focus needs to be on mental health and on the values that we are teaching our children (words and actions as a society), but I need to be able to back up my discussions with numbers explaining why empty legislation is not the solution.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#79320 Jan 30, 2013
first hit
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article...
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
<quoted text>
What? Illegal where? Minors in Minnesota can have rifles.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#79321 Jan 30, 2013
Florida has 10/20/life but I dont think it seems to be much of a deterrent.
RedheadwGlasses wrote:
I remember watching a news program about an East Coast city (I wish I could remember which city, but I don’t) that established a “three strikes” law. But part of that included funding to inform the public about this law – that if you get caught with a gun while committing a felony and it’s your third strike, you are going to prison for a minimum of X (20, 25) years, just for starters. They put up billboards, signs in bus stops, really informed the lower income parts of the city.
And the use of guns in crimes dropped dramatically. The cops and prosecutors said “No one wants to go to prison. So while these guys didn’t stop committing crimes, at least they didn’t carry guns as much as in the past.” Which is a very good thing. I see that measure as a win all around.

“A Programmer is not in IT!”

Since: Feb 09

Neda, stay with me! Charlie

#79322 Jan 30, 2013
Great!
Sam thinks that committing murder is a perfectly sane act.

Murder, its not just for crazies anymore!

What an effin dolt.

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#79323 Jan 30, 2013
I realize that many people like her and think she's really sexy, but I'm sick of Beyonce.

Thank goodness we watch the Puppy Bowl.
Sam I Am

Cedar Grove, TN

#79324 Jan 30, 2013
RACE wrote:
Great!
Sam thinks that committing murder is a perfectly sane act.
Murder, its not just for crazies anymore!
What an effin dolt.
So, to clarify, your position is that everyone who commits a murder is insane, correct? It is impossible for a sane person to be evil, correct?

I'll give you this: No matter how ridiculous, unfounded and nonsensical your positions are, you cling to them like a life raft in the middle of the Pacific.

I understand that it's easier for you to just paint everything in broad strokes/simple terms - that way your head don't hurts too much from thinkin'- so you can blame a problem all on something that doesn't challange your position, but the world just isn't that way.
Sam I Am

Cedar Grove, TN

#79325 Jan 30, 2013
squishymama wrote:
I realize that many people like her and think she's really sexy, but I'm sick of Beyonce.
Thank goodness we watch the Puppy Bowl.
Are you more sick of her or the Kardashians?

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#79326 Jan 30, 2013
RACE wrote:
Great!
Sam thinks that committing murder is a perfectly sane act.
Murder, its not just for crazies anymore!
What an effin dolt.
C'mon RACE. I think you know she's trying to point out that in some places in this country, killing people is not seen as crazy.

The gang violence we're seeing in Chicago is seen by most as crazy, but the people living in it do not. It is perfectly normal and natural for them to solve problems and end disputes with the use of a gun.

I don't get it and probably never will, but I didn't grow up in a place where violence was just an excepted part of everyday life.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#79327 Jan 30, 2013
Jess in NJ wrote:
<quoted text>
But that is part of my point. In your scenario, the kid could obtain the gun legally, but he didn't. Tightening the laws won't make any difference, because he wasn't following the ones that were already in existence.
People are more impressed by big numbers and I suspect that the majority of gun homicides are committed by guns that were obtained illegally. Most of the murders aren't mass homicides, they are single or double homicides that don't attract as much attention, especially when they occur in urban areas. From reading the articles in the paper, most of those murders aren't committed using "assault" weapons.
I would like to have educated conversations on this topic, especially among my political associates. My opinion is that our focus needs to be on mental health and on the values that we are teaching our children (words and actions as a society), but I need to be able to back up my discussions with numbers explaining why empty legislation is not the solution.
In the 1999 Columbine shooting, all the guns were obtained illegally, partially because the murderers were not old enough to buy them, but the assault rifle ban in place at the time didn't apply to any of them. The Carbine and the TEC-DC9 were legal to buy if they had been old enough. They also carried 2 sawed-off shotguns, which have been illegal for years. Shotguns are legal and, so far, nobody is talking about banning them. But shortening them, in order to make them easier to hide, is illegal. I know that Columbine has often been used as justification for a ban, but it's a faulty justification. There was a ban in place at the time, and it was irrelevant. There was also a lot of speculation at the time that they were lashing out to get even with those who had bullied them, and therefore we should really focus on stopping that kind of behavior. I'm all for the idea of eliminating bullying, but according to journals the two boys kept, they weren't victims. In fact, they bragged about being the bullies themselves.
Mental health is obviously a concern, but in most instances that I have heard of, there was no issue large enough to actually do anything, such as commitment, before the person snapped and starting killing people.
I don't hold video games or movies responsible, but we have become a culture that is less concerned about others. For one thing, it is no longer the individual's responsibility to worry about their neighbors...the government can handle that soooo much better. And the internet doesn't help at all either, or maybe just the way we use it. People say such foul, disgusting things to one another, that I would hope they wouldn't say face-to-face, and that just helps dehumanize others. Of course, the gang mentality that has spread so much, confusing fear and intimidation with respect, doesn't help either.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that the empty feel-good legislation isn't going to solve anything.

“The two baby belly, please!”

Since: Sep 09

Evanston IL

#79328 Jan 30, 2013
Sam I Am wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you more sick of her or the Kardashians?
Hmmm...

I think it's a tie.

“I Am Mine”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#79329 Jan 30, 2013
squishymama wrote:
I realize that many people like her and think she's really sexy, but I'm sick of Beyonce.
Thank goodness we watch the Puppy Bowl.
Perhaps it is due to the programs you watch? TMZ? Entertainment tonight? Other Hollywood 'gossip' shows perhaps?
I can't get sick of her because the things I watch/read rarely have anything to do with her. Same with the Kardashians. Or those 'real' housewives shows. Or Jersey Shore. Or Honey Boo Boo.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Chicago Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting... (Jan '09) 1 min Jacques in Orleans 197,238
News Israeli troops begin Gaza pullout as Hamas decl... (Jan '09) 16 min TRD 70,163
News Once slow-moving threat, global warming speeds ... (Dec '08) 21 min SpaceBlues 54,629
News Barack Obama, our next President (Nov '08) 44 min Chicagoan by Birth 1,279,021
{keep A word drop A word} (Oct '11) 3 hr Red_Forman 6,450
News Should prostitution be less illegal-or more? 8 hr El Diablo 13
abby 9-4-15 16 hr mrs gladys kravitz 6
More from around the web

Personal Finance

Chicago Mortgages