BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting Obama's citizen...

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Justice LRS

Shreveport, LA

#162674 Jul 5, 2013
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>That won't get the aggressor out of manslaughter. Neither can a burglar claim self defense and walk.
The point being, the tables can be turned on the "aggressor".
wojar

Bristol, CT

#162675 Jul 5, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
The point being, the tables can be turned on the "aggressor".
The point being that the play justice doesn't have a point. Self defense will not get Zimmerman off if he is seen as instigator. His reckless pursuit resulting in the death of a person who was violating no law, Zimmerman is liable for jail time.
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>That won't get the aggressor out of manslaughter. Neither can a burglar claim self defense and walk.
Justice LRS

Shreveport, LA

#162676 Jul 5, 2013
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>
The point being that the play justice doesn't have a point. Self defense will not get Zimmerman off if he is seen as instigator. His reckless pursuit resulting in the death of a person who was violating no law, Zimmerman is liable for jail time.
<quoted text>
Surely, you understand what "in general" means? Then again, maybe you don't.
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#162677 Jul 5, 2013
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
Ellen1 wrote:
<quoted text>
When Eisenhower was president, the far right wing conservatives said that he was a communist and a "traitor."
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
And I am sure you can prove that, Tootzie?
<quoted text>
Can you F-ing read? I mean, CAN YOU F-ING READ? What does "the far right wing conservatives said"?
It was written by Robert W. Welch, Jr. who was the president of the John Birches and is an INDIVIDUAL and if he is a Conservative, Obama is a Stalinist-Communist!!!
Also, you can always find a few loonies on both sides of the political equations. Yes, IHMO Eisenhower was left of center but "Tootzie" wants to imply that everyone that is a birther, is a far right extremest when that is not the case!
Nevertheless, the Welch quotation shows that the far right wing considered Eisenhower, a loyal US citizen, a "traitor." So, now the far right wing calls Obama a "Stalinist-Communist. "

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162678 Jul 5, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
The point being, the tables can be turned on the "aggressor".
Not in Florida.

See Johnson v. State, 65 So.3d 1147 (3rd Dist. 2011)

Vila v. State, 74 So.3d 1110 (5th Dist. 2011)

http://tinyurl.com/cr9mwb9

"Florida Cases Interpreting Section 776.041: Person Who "Initially Provoked" Incident May Not Claim Self Defense"

"Were we convinced that the final encounter was of such nature that the issue of self defense was properly introduced and the appellant's blame should therefore be judged by the amount of force he used in resisting his victim, we think the testimony would have been admissible. But the facts believed by the jury point too strongly to a deliberate pursuit by appellant, after the original difficulty had ended and the parties had separated. The law is quite clear that one may not provoke a difficulty and having done so act under the necessity produced by the difficulty, then kill his adversary and justify the homicide under the plea of self defense." (emphasis supplied) Mixon v. State, 59 So.2d 38 (Fla. 1952).

BTW that was a second degree murder case. Guilty and affirmed.

According to Professor Wilson Huhn:

"The West Key Digest system brings up a number of older Florida cases involving the rule that a "wrongdoer" may not claim self-defense. In several of these cases the courts stated that the defendant must be "free from fault" in order to claim self-defense. The quoted language in each case is from the key digest headnote, not the case itself."

Zimmerman will be SOL if the jury believes he instigated the incident and is not free from fault, and it properly follows instructions from the judge.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#162679 Jul 5, 2013
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>When was the last time your mental healthcare provider adjusted your medication?
When was the last time they let you out of your padded cell?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#162680 Jul 5, 2013
Ellen1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Nevertheless, the Welch quotation shows that the far right wing considered Eisenhower, a loyal US citizen, a "traitor." So, now the far right wing calls Obama a "Stalinist-Communist. "
I guess some do call Obama a Stalinist but I don't. But he is a socialist/Fascist!
Oh, Fascists are socialists who use intimidation or violence to make people do what they are told. Like using the IRS to punish their detractors.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#162681 Jul 5, 2013
Pdamerica org wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the data.
I did not know Canada and the USA relations were not as good as when Dumbya Bush was in charge.
Obama for the most part continued Bush/Cheney.
The average middle class citizenry have been losing ground worldwide since 1980 Reagan to present day 2013 Obama.
More accurately Alan Greenspan & Ben Bernanke!
And the current Canadian government is happy with Obummer Boy?
Obama not only continued most of Bush's programs, he has expanded them!
And the average middle class has gone into a nose dive under Obama. There are SEVEN MILLION fewer employed Americans now than when Bush left the White House!
And was is "More accurately" abut either Greenspan or Bernanke?

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162682 Jul 5, 2013
"In the Zimmerman case the prosecution will make the following argument. Based upon his own statements to the police dispatcher Zimmerman profiled Martin and followed him in his car, and then exited his car and followed him armed with a gun. Zimmerman suspected Martin of committing a crime and was intent that Martin should not get away. Martin was completely innocent of any crime; he was simply walking home from a trip to the store. Zimmerman was unjustified in pursuing Martin and under the circumstances his conduct was threatening. This, the prosecution will argue, was sufficient to "initially provoke" the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow. There is no credible evidence that Zimmerman either tried to escape from Martin or that he withdrew and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation. Accordingly, under 776.014, Zimmerman may not claim that he acted in self-defense."

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162683 Jul 5, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
Surely, you understand what "in general" means? Then again, maybe you don't.
Surely you understand what FALSE means?

Play Justice LRS: The point being, the tables can be turned on the "aggressor".

Not in Florida, sonny. Maybe you should take off your play law robes and set up your choo choo train set.
Justice LRS

Shreveport, LA

#162684 Jul 5, 2013
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>
Not in Florida.
See Johnson v. State, 65 So.3d 1147 (3rd Dist. 2011)
Vila v. State, 74 So.3d 1110 (5th Dist. 2011)
http://tinyurl.com/cr9mwb9
"Florida Cases Interpreting Section 776.041: Person Who "Initially Provoked" Incident May Not Claim Self Defense"
"Were we convinced that the final encounter was of such nature that the issue of self defense was properly introduced and the appellant's blame should therefore be judged by the amount of force he used in resisting his victim, we think the testimony would have been admissible. But the facts believed by the jury point too strongly to a deliberate pursuit by appellant, after the original difficulty had ended and the parties had separated. The law is quite clear that one may not provoke a difficulty and having done so act under the necessity produced by the difficulty, then kill his adversary and justify the homicide under the plea of self defense." (emphasis supplied) Mixon v. State, 59 So.2d 38 (Fla. 1952).
BTW that was a second degree murder case. Guilty and affirmed.
According to Professor Wilson Huhn:
"The West Key Digest system brings up a number of older Florida cases involving the rule that a "wrongdoer" may not claim self-defense. In several of these cases the courts stated that the defendant must be "free from fault" in order to claim self-defense. The quoted language in each case is from the key digest headnote, not the case itself."
Zimmerman will be SOL if the jury believes he instigated the incident and is not free from fault, and it properly follows instructions from the judge.
I'm not so sure.

justifications for use of force will also not apply where the evidence establishes that the defendant initially provoked violence against him- or herself. To claim self-defense in such a scenario, Section 776.041 requires the defendant to demonstrate that he or she used every reasonable means short of deadly force to extricate him- or herself from the situation, and that the degree of force used by the other person (the initial non-aggressor) led the defendant to reasonably believe that he or she was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Alternatively, a defendant who is an initial aggressor may claim self-defense if:(1) in good faith, he or she withdrew from physical contact,(2) clearly indicated to the other person that he or she desired to withdraw and terminate the use of force, and (3) despite the communication and withdrawal, the other person continued or resumed the use of force. See Section 776.041(2)(b), Florida Statutes.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162685 Jul 5, 2013
Play Justice LRS: The point being, the tables can be turned on the "aggressor".

Somewhere in that statement the Play Justice sees, "in general", which has nothing to do with the case he was talking about that is taking place in FLORIDA.

Clue to morons: Florida law governs Florida courts.

“Bonjour Hello Buongiorno Hola”

Since: Feb 12

Ottawa

#162686 Jul 5, 2013
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
<quoted text>
And the current Canadian government is happy with Obummer Boy?
Obama not only continued most of Bush's programs, he has expanded them!
And the average middle class has gone into a nose dive under Obama. There are SEVEN MILLION fewer employed Americans now than when Bush left the White House!
And was is "More accurately" abut either Greenspan or Bernanke?
Your reading leaves much to be desired, as in this current discussion, I pointed out that Canada-USA relations were much better when GWB was president and frosty at the present time. Do you know what "frosty" means? FYI it's the opposite of "warm".
Justice LRS

Shreveport, LA

#162687 Jul 5, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
The point I was making was in reference to your original post. I was pointing out that the aggressor could have the tables turned on him and he ends up being the one claiming self-defense. Just talking about the SYG law in general.
toesap, your little game of deflection is really sad. See the post above? Can you read and understand the last sentence? My other post came from Florida Statutes and it explains how the aggressor may end up claiming self-defense. It's in black and white. Sorry, you lose.
Justice LRS

Shreveport, LA

#162688 Jul 5, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
toesap, your little game of deflection is really sad. See the post above? Can you read and understand the last sentence? My other post came from Florida Statutes and it explains how the aggressor may end up claiming self-defense. It's in black and white. Sorry, you lose.
Allow me to rephrase that last part. You lost!

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162689 Jul 5, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not so sure.
justifications for use of force will also not apply where the evidence establishes that the defendant initially provoked violence against him- or herself. To claim self-defense in such a scenario, Section 776.041 requires the defendant to demonstrate that he or she used every reasonable means short of deadly force to extricate him- or herself from the situation, and that the degree of force used by the other person (the initial non-aggressor) led the defendant to reasonably believe that he or she was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Alternatively, a defendant who is an initial aggressor may claim self-defense if:(1) in good faith, he or she withdrew from physical contact,(2) clearly indicated to the other person that he or she desired to withdraw and terminate the use of force, and (3) despite the communication and withdrawal, the other person continued or resumed the use of force. See Section 776.041(2)(b), Florida Statutes.
Sorry, unlike Professor Hahn, who cited binding case law, you are citing a web site's pure conjecture. Vila c. State and Johnson v. State were both tried recently under 776.041, and the appellate court made it clear what the law is, your favorite web site notwithstanding.

Now put those play judge robes away. Isn't it time for your nap?
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>
Not in Florida.
See Johnson v. State, 65 So.3d 1147 (3rd Dist. 2011)
Vila v. State, 74 So.3d 1110 (5th Dist. 2011)
http://tinyurl.com/cr9mwb9
"Florida Cases Interpreting Section 776.041: Person Who "Initially Provoked" Incident May Not Claim Self Defense"
"Were we convinced that the final encounter was of such nature that the issue of self defense was properly introduced and the appellant's blame should therefore be judged by the amount of force he used in resisting his victim, we think the testimony would have been admissible. But the facts believed by the jury point too strongly to a deliberate pursuit by appellant, after the original difficulty had ended and the parties had separated. The law is quite clear that one may not provoke a difficulty and having done so act under the necessity produced by the difficulty, then kill his adversary and justify the homicide under the plea of self defense." (emphasis supplied) Mixon v. State, 59 So.2d 38 (Fla. 1952).
BTW that was a second degree murder case. Guilty and affirmed.
According to Professor Wilson Huhn:
"The West Key Digest system brings up a number of older Florida cases involving the rule that a "wrongdoer" may not claim self-defense. In several of these cases the courts stated that the defendant must be "free from fault" in order to claim self-defense. The quoted language in each case is from the key digest headnote, not the case itself."
Zimmerman will be SOL if the jury believes he instigated the incident and is not free from fault, and it properly follows instructions from the judge.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162690 Jul 5, 2013
"Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm"

Sorry, George, the evidence does not support. No DNA under Martin's fingernails. No marks on his hands. No blood at the ends of his sleeves. Meanwhile Z had a scratch on the back of his head, and minor nose injury. Both could have been self inflicted and did not require "force so great".

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162691 Jul 5, 2013
"The Court of Appeal found that victim's testimony was sufficient to invoke Section 776.041 and instruct the jury that the defendant may not claim self-defense if he "initially provoked" the attack. The court was careful to state that the acts constituting "initial provocation" must be "contemporaneous" with the actions of the victim."

-Professor Wilson Hahn

What part of "initially provoked" does the play law justice not comprehend?
Justice LRS

Shreveport, LA

#162692 Jul 5, 2013
You did read the Florida Statute, right? Then you read how it can be applied. Stick your head in the sand if you want. Makes no difference to me. You lost. Get over it.

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

RationalState

#162693 Jul 5, 2013
And even if George could invoke self defense against a murder charge, it would not relieve him of culpability under manslaughter statutes.

I think jail time is very likely for George. His fellow inmates not like an aspiring cop.

Wait 'till he meets Bubba.

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