BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit ...

BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting Obama's citizen...

There are 194650 comments on the Chicago Tribune story from Jan 8, 2009, titled BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting Obama's citizen.... In it, Chicago Tribune reports that:

The U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama 's U.S. citizenship, a continuation of a New Jersey case embraced by some opponents of Obama's ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Chicago Tribune.

Learn to Read

Indianapolis, IN

#160444 Jun 19, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>Pattern is an excellent word for it! You get called out and you back out. "Hey, let's go to the bar and I'll buy you a drink"! LMAO! Are you a drunk or what? Regardless, sparky is dismissed.
Buy? Again demonstrating that you failed English.

Called out?

I never expressed an interest in Inbredville or your pathetic ass. You wanted to meet and then BACKED OUT faster than a frightened school girl when I called you on it.

You want to blather about how tough "we" are? Blather on. I laughed at you the first time and every time since.

Poor Puss Boi. Stomp your feet all you want (what ever happened to that "issue" you were blathering about?)

“Arm the homeless!”

Since: Jul 12

The internet

#160445 Jun 19, 2013
Linktv org wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I just remembered.
Obama for continuing the crimes of Bush/Cheney.
Spying on Americans.
----------
Verizon and AT&T Provided Cell Towers for McCain Ranch
Senator's Wife Did Not Receive Favors, Campaign Says
October 16, 2008 / http://tinyurl.com/4ht5yt
Early in 2007, just as her husband launched his presidential bid, Cindy McCain sought to resolve an old problem -- the lack of cellphone coverage on her remote 15-acre ranch near Sedona, Ariz., nestled deep in a tree-lined canyon called Hidden Valley.
Over the past year, she offered land for a permanent cell tower, and Verizon Wireless embarked on an expensive public process to meet her needs, hiring contractors and seeking county land-use permits.
Verizon ultimately abandoned its effort to install a permanent tower in August. Company spokesman Jeffrey Nelson said the project would be "an inappropriate way" to build its network. "It doesn't make business sense for us to do that," he added.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/...
==========
Spy Agency Sought U.S. Call Records Before 9/11, Lawyers Say
http://tinyurl.com/n882x
June 30 (Bloomberg)-- The U.S. National Security Agency asked AT&T Inc. to help it set up a domestic call monitoring site seven months before the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, lawyers claimed June 23 in court papers filed in New York federal court.
The allegation is part of a court filing adding AT&T, the nation's largest telephone company, as a defendant in a breach of privacy case filed earlier this month on behalf of Verizon Communications Inc. and BellSouth Corp. customers. The suit alleges that the three carriers, the NSA and President George W. Bush violated the Telecommunications Act of 1934 and the U.S. Constitution, and seeks money damages.
``The Bush Administration asserted this became necessary after 9/11,'' plaintiff's lawyer Carl Mayer said in a telephone interview.``This undermines that assertion.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news... #
--------
President Obama’s Christmas Gift to AT&T (and Comcast and Verizon)
http://tinyurl.com/2cne5wf / Dec 21, 2010
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/president...
--------
VERIZON & AT&T SPY ON ALL THEIR CUSTOMERS
Telecom Whistleblower Discovers Circuit that Allows Access to All Systems on Wireless Carrier—Phone Calls, Text Messages, Emails and More / April 10, 2008 / http://tinyurl.com/4u8nla
Babak Pasdar is a computer security expert who was hired in 2003 to help restructure the tech infrastructure at a major wireless telecommunications company. What he found shocked him. The company had set up a system that gave a third party, presumably a governmental entity, access to every communication coming through that company’s infrastructure. This means every email, internet use, document transmission, video, text message, as well as the ability to listen to and record any phone call.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/10/telecom...
Would be nice to get the 4th and 5th amendments back.
Learn to Read

Indianapolis, IN

#160446 Jun 19, 2013
Scrutiny wrote:
<quoted text>Would be nice to get the 4th and 5th amendments back.
If you insist on making logical and rational statements we're going to have to ask you to leave this thread
wojar

Hartford, CT

#160447 Jun 19, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
So, are you saying that mankind underwent a population bottleneck in ancient times?
There was more than one bottleneck. Population was never lower than 1000 which rules out Adam & Eve. Lowlands gorillas never had such a bottleneck so that rules out Noah's world-wide flood. Tough tittie.

“Arm the homeless!”

Since: Jul 12

The internet

#160448 Jun 19, 2013
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
<quoted text>
And just why do you want to "arm the homeless"?
<quoted text>
But why do YOU use that term? I have no problem with homeless people being armed as they have the right to protect themselves but I am sick and tired of giving poor people things that they will just hock to get money for their drugs, booze, etc.
I will respond to this when I am done today.

Presently, I want to tell you a story. I came across it last night and thought it was up your alley. 100% non-fiction.

It concerns 1st Lieutenant Harold Fisher. It was World War II and he was on his 20th bombing mission... limping back from Italy.

His B-17 "Bonnie Sue" was barely flyable. Two engines were gone, and he was seriously considering ditching the plane. He had the crew throw everything out: guns, ammo, flak jackets, anything that could decrease the weight of the aircraft, hoping to stay up long enough for a miracle.

And they appeared to get just that! An American P-38 fighter came by to cover him. Harold radioed him asking for assistance, and his new best friend on Earth pulled alongside to escort him home.

A few moments later... Fisher was shot down by the very P-38 that was supposed to be covering him.

Instead of an American pilot behind the controls, this particular P-38 was piloted by Guido Rossi an Italian pilot who had captured it on the ground.

Fisher attempted a water landing with his B-17 and... as far as water landings go, it was pretty successful. Translation: Every single person on board wasn't killed. Fisher survived the landing and was picked up by the British.

He soon learned he wasn't Rossi's only victim.

Fisher went to his commander, and asked permission to borrow an experimental YB-40 aircraft. A YB-40 was essentially a B-17 with the bombs taken out and a ridiculous amount of guns added.

There were no YB-40s in Africa, so they had the Brits fly one out there, for the sole purpose of taking down Rossi.

After hand-picking a crew... Fisher went out in search of Rossi, with no success. Rossi was still off somewhere in his undercover plane, pulling this stunt on every B-17 he could find.

Fisher wasn't going to give up. He dug through intelligence documents and found something interesting....

Rossi's wife, Gina, was located behind friendly lines. Fisher swiftly pulled some recon. After seeing what she looked like, Fisher got a painter to paint a picture of her on his shiny new YB-40 and put her name on it. All just so he could piss off Rossi even more when he shot him down.

On the next bombing mission, Fisher was getting ready to become a pretend straggler again when he all of a sudden was shot and became an actual straggler...go figure.

After ordering his crew to dump everything except for ammunition, they flew on. Soon enough a P-38 pulled up alongside, but they couldn't tell if it was Rossi or not. Thinking this time it was a legitimate P-38, he ordered ammunition dumped overboard as well, until a curious question came across the radio.

"Pretty girl, Gina. She from Constantine?"

Fisher ordered his men to keep their ammunition and guns and carried on with his conversation with the P-38 pilot, regaling him with stories about how awesome it was to be nailing Mrs. Rossi.

Naturally, Rossi wasn't real happy at the moment. He flew far ahead of the bomber and attempted a total F.U. head-on attack.

Waiting until the last minute, Fisher ordered every gun on board his aircraft to fire on the P-38, which was literally shredded away around Rossi from the massive amount of gunfire.

Rossi was picked up by Allied Rescue crews and became a POW for the rest of the war. Meanwhile, Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.

“Arm the homeless!”

Since: Jul 12

The internet

#160449 Jun 19, 2013
Rouge...

I came across a story last night and thought it was up your alley. 100% non-fiction.

It concerns 1st Lieutenant Harold Fisher. It was World War II and he was on his 20th bombing mission... limping back from Italy.

His B-17 "Bonnie Sue" was barely flyable. Two engines were gone, and he was seriously considering ditching the plane. He had the crew throw everything out: guns, ammo, flak jackets, anything that could decrease the weight of the aircraft, hoping to stay up long enough for a miracle.

And they appeared to get just that! An American P-38 fighter came by to cover him. Harold radioed him asking for assistance, and his new best friend on Earth pulled alongside to escort him home.

A few moments later... Fisher was shot down by the very P-38 that was supposed to be covering him.

Instead of an American pilot behind the controls, this particular P-38 was piloted by Guido Rossi an Italian pilot who had captured it on the ground.

Fisher attempted a water landing with his B-17 and... as far as water landings go, it was pretty successful. Translation: Every single person on board wasn't killed. Fisher survived the landing and was picked up by the British.

He soon learned he wasn't Rossi's only victim.

Fisher went to his commander, and asked permission to borrow an experimental YB-40 aircraft. A YB-40 was essentially a B-17 with the bombs taken out and a ridiculous amount of guns added.

There were no YB-40s in Africa, so they had the Brits fly one out there, for the sole purpose of taking down Rossi.

After hand-picking a crew... Fisher went out in search of Rossi, with no success. Rossi was still off somewhere in his undercover plane, pulling this stunt on every B-17 he could find.

Fisher wasn't going to give up. He dug through intelligence documents and found something interesting....

Rossi's wife, Gina, was located behind friendly lines. Fisher swiftly pulled some recon. After seeing what she looked like, Fisher got a painter to paint a picture of her on his shiny new YB-40 and put her name on it. All just so he could piss off Rossi even more when he shot him down.

On the next bombing mission, Fisher was getting ready to become a pretend straggler again when he all of a sudden was shot and became an actual straggler...go figure.

After ordering his crew to dump everything except for ammunition, they flew on. Soon enough a P-38 pulled up alongside, but they couldn't tell if it was Rossi or not. Thinking this time it was a legitimate P-38, he ordered ammunition dumped overboard as well, until a curious question came across the radio.

"Pretty girl, Gina. She from Constantine?"

Fisher ordered his men to keep their ammunition and guns and carried on with his conversation with the P-38 pilot, regaling him with stories about how awesome it was to be nailing Mrs. Rossi.

Naturally, Rossi wasn't real happy at the moment. He flew far ahead of the bomber and attempted a total F.U. head-on attack.

Waiting until the last minute, Fisher ordered every gun on board his aircraft to fire on the P-38, which was literally shredded away around Rossi from the massive amount of gunfire.

Rossi was picked up by Allied Rescue crews and became a POW for the rest of the war. Meanwhile, Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.

“Arm the homeless!”

Since: Jul 12

The internet

#160450 Jun 19, 2013
crap...

Sorry about the double post.

“Arm the homeless!”

Since: Jul 12

The internet

#160451 Jun 19, 2013
WOW...triple!!!!!

You are mostly christians.

Just forgive me.

:)

“Facts trump speculation”

Since: Dec 08

Bristol, CT

#160452 Jun 19, 2013
Justice LRS wrote:
<quoted text>
Fact: You and jackfish use several different names. Care to tell us why? Obumbler should be impeached, no question about it. And guess what lil pol? It has nothing to do with his skin color. However, it has everything to do with incompetence and being a liar. His appointed cronies are the same. Don't you just love their answers; I don't know, I can't recall,(my fav) I recused myself (LMAO), I don't have that information, I plead the fifth, What difference does it make! The list goes on and on. These are the people you look up to. Failures and liars. Brilliant move on your part. Absolutely brilliant (for a dumbazz). SMS indeed.
Fact, paranoid schizophrenics do not have sufficient grasp of reality to distinguish fact from fancy.
wojar wrote:
Yeah, right. George Soros hired at least two people to hang out on Topix under multiple identities to prevent LRS the superhero 'Justice' from spearheading the drive to impeach the President. Now why doesn't he ask Sheriff clueless Joe for a badge? If you're gonna go bonkers, go all the way buddy.
<quoted text>
Learn to Read

Indianapolis, IN

#160453 Jun 19, 2013
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>Fact, paranoid schizophrenics do not have sufficient grasp of reality to distinguish fact from fancy.

wojar wrote, "
Yeah, right. George Soros hired at least two people to hang out on Topix under multiple identities to prevent LRS the superhero 'Justice' from spearheading the drive to impeach the President. Now why doesn't he ask Sheriff clueless Joe for a badge? If you're gonna go bonkers, go all the way buddy.
<quoted text>"
Wojar - your failure to jump on Soros' private jet and fly down to Inbredville, LA just proves that Romper is right when he "outs you" as the "cowardly Canadian hired by George". I really wish you'd stop encouraging his fantasies
wojar

New Britain, CT

#160454 Jun 19, 2013
Learn to Read wrote:
<quoted text>
Wojar - your failure to jump on Soros' private jet and fly down to Inbredville, LA just proves that Romper is right when he "outs you" as the "cowardly Canadian hired by George". I really wish you'd stop encouraging his fantasies
Considering the **immense** significance of this forum on the course of human events one wonders why Romper doesn't think we're all really Old George himself using multiple monikers.
Learn to Read

Indianapolis, IN

#160456 Jun 19, 2013
wojar wrote:
<quoted text>Considering the **immense** significance of this forum on the course of human events one wonders why Romper doesn't think we're all really Old George himself using multiple monikers.
Don't be silly. George would never lower himself to mock Romper. He has people for that
Learn to Read

Indianapolis, IN

#160457 Jun 19, 2013
Learn to Read wrote:
<quoted text>Don't be silly. George would never lower himself to mock Romper. He has people for that
(Besides which, George told me that trying to follow one if Rouge's stories gave him a headache)
Linktv org

Brooklyn, NY

#160458 Jun 19, 2013
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
<quoted text>But you can not impeach someone for lying. Ony perjury. Speaking of perjury, you did not mention Bill Clinton. Perjury in a federal court. Perjury in a federal grand jury. Suborning a false affidavit from Monica Lewinsky. Conspiring with Ms Lewinsky to obtain a false affidavit from Linda Tripp, submitting two false affidavits to federal court and Conspiring to obstruct justice with Ms. Lewinsky in hiding her DNA stained dress. All FELONIES but you give Bubba a pass. WHY?
All Right, all right already.

Slick Willie lied about a girl.
Ben Ghazi

Topeka, KS

#160459 Jun 19, 2013
Dear Senator Harkin,

As a native Iowan and excellent customer of the Internal Revenue Service, I am writing to ask for your assistance. I have contacted the Department of Homeland Security in an effort to determine the process for becoming an illegal alien and they referred me to you.

My primary reason for wishing to change my status from U.S. Citizen to illegal alien stems from the bill which was recently passed by the Senate and for which you voted. If my understanding of this bill is accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five years, all I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and income taxes for only three of the last five years. I know a good deal when I see one and I am anxious to get the process started before everyone figures it out.

Simply put, those of us who have been here legally have had to pay taxes every year so I'm excited about the prospect of avoiding two years of taxes in return for paying a $2,000 fine. Is there any way that I can apply to be illegal retroactively? This would yield an excellent result for me and my family because we paid heavy taxes in 2008 and 2009.

Additionally, as an illegal alien I could begin using the local emergency room as my primary health care provider. Once I have stopped paying premiums for medical insurance, my accountant figures I could save almost $10,000 a year.

Another benefit in gaining illegal status would be that my daughter would receive preferential treatment relative to her law school applications, as well as 'in-state' tuition rates for many colleges throughout the United States for my son.

Lastly, I understand that illegal status would relieve me of the burden of renewing my driver's license and making those burdensome car insurance premiums. This is very important to me, given that I still have college age children driving my car.

If you would provide me with an outline of the process to become illegal (retroactively if possible) and copies of the necessary forms, I would be most appreciative. Thank you for your assistance
Linktv org

Brooklyn, NY

#160460 Jun 19, 2013
Scrutiny wrote:
<quoted text>
On this matter... we agree 100%
Gulf of Tonkin is perhaps the most deplorable act the U.S. has ever engaged in.
Then again...we have had some doozies!
What did America win in Vietnam?

What did America win in Korea?

What did America win in Iraq?

What did America win in Afghanistan?

What did America win in hundreds of hot spots worldwide? That we created BTW.

http://tinyurl.com/nyxk6c

http://tinyurl.com/l8exzel

==========

Hermann Goring
Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?/ http://tinyurl.com/4wh5zt

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.asp
Ben Ghazi

Topeka, KS

#160461 Jun 19, 2013
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
<quoted text>But you can not impeach someone for lying. Ony perjury. Speaking of perjury, you did not mention Bill Clinton. Perjury in a federal court. Perjury in a federal grand jury. Suborning a false affidavit from Monica Lewinsky. Conspiring with Ms Lewinsky to obtain a false affidavit from Linda Tripp, submitting two false affidavits to federal court and Conspiring to obstruct justice with Ms. Lewinsky in hiding her DNA stained dress. All FELONIES but you give Bubba a pass. WHY?
Linktv org wrote:
<quoted text>
All Right, all right already.
Slick Willie lied about a girl.
Tell us, was Monica Lewinsky mentioned in the Bill of Impeachment? Was sex mentioned?? How about lying about anything???
It is not a crime for a politician to lie. If it was a crime, we would have no politicians!!!
Linktv org

Brooklyn, NY

#160462 Jun 19, 2013
Scrutiny wrote:
<quoted text>
Would be nice to get the 4th and 5th amendments back.
Americans are like ignorant frogs swimming in a pot of water that is about to boil over.

We are losing our rights and everyone is arguing about the Guns, the Gays, the Abortion, the Birth Certificate.

==========

Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and associations; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions of property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed.,

The tone is familiar. Is it Clinton’s Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996?

Is it the Bush Patriot Act of 2001?

No. It is from Hitler’s 1933 speech calling for an Enabling Act for the protection of the People and the State after the catastrophic Reichstag fire that the Nazis had secretly lit.

======

Bush challenges hundreds of laws / President cites powers of his office
http://tinyurl.com/ogv5u / April 30, 2006
WASHINGTON -- President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.

Among the laws Bush said he can ignore are military rules and regulations, affirmative-action provisions, requirements that Congress be told about immigration services problems,''whistle-blower " protections for nuclear regulatory officials, and safeguards against political interference in federally funded research.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/20...
Linktv org

Brooklyn, NY

#160463 Jun 19, 2013
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
Knocking on Heaven's Door
When most people think about God, they picture a grumpy old man in the sky handing out impossible rules and smiting people. It’s not often that we have the opportunity to see God as the inventor of humor and a connoisseur of friendship. Knocking on Heaven’s Door explores the relationship between a little boy named Spencer and his best friend—God. This collection of comic strips (with behind-the-scenes notes from writer/comedian Tommy Blaze and artist Nate Fakes), is equally whimsical and profound. As Blaze puts it:
"If Knocking on Heaven’s Door is about anything, it’s about our relationship with God and the understanding that He wants to be included in our everyday lives, no matter how seemingly trivial or insipid.... How could Spencer truly have a personal relationship with an omnipotent being so clearly superior to him? The answer is in the question. God can do anything He wants, which includes empathizing with a little kid and really getting down on his level."
http://kohd.org/
Linktv org

Brooklyn, NY

#160464 Jun 19, 2013
Ben Ghazi wrote:
Rogue Scholar 05 wrote:
<quoted text>But you can not impeach someone for lying. Ony perjury. Speaking of perjury, you did not mention Bill Clinton. Perjury in a federal court. Perjury in a federal grand jury. Suborning a false affidavit from Monica Lewinsky. Conspiring with Ms Lewinsky to obtain a false affidavit from Linda Tripp, submitting two false affidavits to federal court and Conspiring to obstruct justice with Ms. Lewinsky in hiding her DNA stained dress. All FELONIES but you give Bubba a pass. WHY?
<quoted text>
Tell us, was Monica Lewinsky mentioned in the Bill of Impeachment? Was sex mentioned?? How about lying about anything???
It is not a crime for a politician to lie. If it was a crime, we would have no politicians!!!
Yes, perjury is a crime.

How about lying about a WAR?

----------

Libby Trial Exhibits March 6, 2007
http://www.justice.gov/archive/osc/exhibits/0...
http://www.justice.gov/archive/osc/exhibits/0...

P R O C E E D I N G S Whereupon, I. LEWIS LIBBY was called as a witness and, after first being duly sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And Mr. Libby, if you could state your name for the record and spell your name? A. I. Lewis, L-e-w-i-s; Libby, L-i-b-b-y. Q. And do you have a nickname? A. I do. Q. Okay. And that is -- A. "Scooter".
http://www.justice.gov/archive/osc/exhibits/0...

P R O C E E D I N G S Whereupon, I. LEWIS LIBBY was called as a witness and, after first being duly sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Good morning, Mr. Libby. A. Good morning. http://www.justice.gov/archive/osc/exhibits/0...

=========

Libby Judge "Perplexed" by Clemency
http://tinyurl.com/3gdtrms
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/07...

-----

Libby judge 'perplexed' by clemency
His 30-month sentence was appropriate for the former Cheney aide, he writes in his first public comments on the issue.
July 13, 2007 / http://tinyurl.com/3ds8xvn
WASHINGTON — In an unusual expression of frustration, the judge who sentenced former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby to 30 months in jail, only to see the sentence commuted by President Bush, said he was "perplexed" by the act of clemency.

In his first public comments on the matter, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton took issue with Bush's statement that the prison sentence ordered for Libby last month was "excessive." Walton defended the sentence, saying that he followed established legal precedents as well as a strict interpretation of federal sentencing guidelines that has been supported by Bush's own administration.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jul/13/natio...

====

JUDGE AGREED PLAME WAS COVERT Was She or Wasn't She?
Arguing that Libby deserves jail time, Fitzgerald says Plame was a covert agent.
http://tinyurl.com/2o9dvj May 29, 2007
In new court filings, special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has finally resolved one of the most disputed issues at the core of the long-running CIA leak controversy: Valerie Plame Wilson, he asserts, was a “covert” CIA officer who repeatedly traveled overseas using a “cover identity” in order to disguise her relationship with the agency.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18927332/site/new...

---------

Libby Says Bush Authorized Leaks / http://tinyurl.com/zgjtq April 6, 2006
Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff has testified that President Bush authorized him to disclose the contents of a highly classified intelligence assessment to the media to defend the Bush administration's decision to go to war with Iraq, according to papers filed in federal court [PDF] on Wednesday by Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor in the CIA leak case. http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0406...

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