BARACK OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE: Suit contesting Obama's citizen...

The U.S. Supreme Court will consider Friday whether to take up a lawsuit challenging President-elect Barack Obama 's U.S. citizenship, a continuation of a New Jersey case embraced by some opponents of Obama's ... Full Story
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118407 Oct 18, 2012
Guru wrote:
<quoted text>
I saw it honey, nice try. Go to wnd everybody they have it ALL right there in dozens of articles, displays, forensic analysis and everything else. Don't take my word for it, see it for yourself.
Arpaio and Zullo are 100% correct. And so are all the experts in law enforcement on taking apart and deconstructing the documents that were photoshopped. You can have 45+ layers on a copy of a bc. Hawaii lied and they know it. I am from there, and we all know it.
All of you argument here are wrong, but it would take days to educate you if you could even understand it. Your argument about AZ is also completely wrong, I go there all the time, and that guy you mention did not even try to get the originals. Arpaio has everything, and this has been well documented and sent on to Congress at the RNC where he met with them.
Keep trying your best, you are obviously a shill for obama, one of the penny-a-post crowd, but you are completely wrong about all of your facts here. They are sound bites that show your ignorance.
Again, I am from Hawaii and know the entire story, you are posting the coverup. The guy from AZ did nothing but ask a question, he saw none of he documents. Nice try.
correction: it should read: you CAN'T have 45 layers...
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118408 Oct 18, 2012
Obama is a joke wrote:
I can't believe that this is still an issue.
It is about as much an issue as this is:

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Nathan Goulding with The National Review:“We have received several e-mails today calling into question the validity of the PDF that the White House released, namely that there are embedded layers in the document. There are now several other people on the case. We looked into it and dismissed it.… I’ve confirmed that scanning an image, converting it to a PDF, optimizing that PDF, and then opening it up in Illustrator, does in fact create layers similar to what is seen in the birth certificate PDF. You can try it yourself at home.”
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118409 Oct 18, 2012
Guru wrote:
<quoted text>
correction: it should read: you CAN'T have 45 layers...
Layers are normal in pdf. That is the way that it works, and in complex documents there are many layers. This was a scan of a complex document on security paper.

Nathan Goulding with The National Review:“We have received several e-mails today calling into question the validity of the PDF that the White House released, namely that there are embedded layers in the document. There are now several other people on the case. We looked into it and dismissed it.… I’ve confirmed that scanning an image, converting it to a PDF, optimizing that PDF, and then opening it up in Illustrator, does in fact create layers similar to what is seen in the birth certificate PDF. You can try it yourself at home.”
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118410 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
<quoted text>
And you are obviously someone who hates Obama. You have not cited any facts proving that Sheriff Joe is accurate. You only say that you think that he is, yet the cited articles show that he is wrong.
Moreover, you claim that the birth certificate is forged, and you do so only by citing "birther experts"---whose expertise has not been proven, some of whom are nutty, and the others are zealots who hate Obama, often to the extent of claiming that Obama did not attend Columbia College despite the fact that Columbia University says that he did, and graduated.
When Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck and the National Review call call birthers crazy, and when the CONSERVATIVE secretary of state of Arizona asks Hawaii to confirm that it has Obama's birth certificate on file and to confirm various facts on the birth certificate, and it does (and in fact confirms ALL of the facts on the birth certificate), and the CONSERVATIVE secretary of state of Arizona rules that that is evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, then you have to realize that your cause is lost.
OK, I see you are here, I'll go a few more rounds with you before I sleep...

It so happens I voted FOR obama. I don't hate him, but I realized long ago that he is a creature of habit: lies, forgeries like he and his friend Ayers bragged about, his connections and upbringing, in fact his whole life story, are filled with constructs, like his books, which talks about his "girlfriends", all made up, etc. He does this for a living, and has been ripped so many times for his lies it is sickening. The debate last night was classis...he lies about everything, from the oil debates with Mitt, he cut them 62% and 35% on the permits, drilling, etc. He lied. He also lied about the coverup on Libya. Now he is trying to create another lie which Mitt got on the record, and now will be obama's undoing on the next debate. He lied so hard, he made Crowly reiterate it. The transcripts already showed he lied about Libya being terrorism, he never mentioned it, and if he did know on dayone in the Rose Garden, why did he then spend the next 14 days saying it was the movie 6 times at the UN, sending out Ambassador Rice on 5 shows on a Sunday saying it was not terrorism, had Clinton do the same, and take out TV time in Benghazi saying it was not terrorism but a movie, and going on the View to lie again in front of millions.

Well lade, your here just perjured himself in front of the world, that will all be item #1 next debate.

Lets see you spin that one honey.
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118411 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
Re: "Hawaii lied."
One of the people who would have lied then would be the former Republican governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle, now running for US Senate. Why would she have lied? Why would Hawaii issue a short-form birth certificate (which is the official birth certificate of Hawaii, by the way) for Obama back in 2007---when he was not famous at all?
Moreover, you have to explain the fact that a birth notice for Obama was sent to the Hawaii newspapers' "Health Bureau Statistics" section (which as the name shows was only for lists from the DOH) by the DOH in 1961. In 1961 the DOH was not allowed to issue birth certificates to someone who was not born in Hawaii.
those are not hard for me to answer.

IF Lingle saw it, which I doubt, she is trying for re-election for office again right now. If she said that she would lose. She was also on her way out at the time. The guy in there now, albercrumbs as we call the midget hippie, could not find it, just the reference to the 1961 article in the paper. That is also a common practice in Hawaii for people to put it in the paper. people from Japan do it by the thousands, or used to, and it is done for reasons which I will describe now. Back in the day a US citizenship was a good thing to have- still is. But then, all you had to do was ask for a posting in the paper. Birth certificates were given on word only (you should know this), and could be done retroactively for decades. The Japanese did it routinely and then they would move over to the islands. As Arpaio said, it is a huge national security issue because in HI people can be born in an outlying area without a physician present. remember, HI did not become a state until 1959. My home there was built with almost no buildings codes. Things were not done like they are here now. So, you could walk into any office and fill out an afidavit and get a birth certificate. People did that 50 years after their birth routinely and HI being HI say- OK! That was before terrorism like we have now. They would also routinely send over the date to the newspaers who would publish it without question. People would routinely put thing in the paper from Japan! and ask for a bc later when they got there. All legal. All legit in HI.

BTW....obama's more never was at either of the two hospitals that obama claimed that he was born at. Two hospitals! His "fathers" were construct too- they keep changing. Ever notice that? The list goes on and on, but his whole life is a lie. He is being swamped with this reality now. He lies for the event he is at. They he gets caught, and tells more lies. But they are catching up to him now, and people don't believe him anymore, that is why the polls are all going to Mitt now. Like I said, the American people don't like to be lied to by their president. Remember, I voted for him the first time, before I researched any of this. Too bad for this country that nobody ever vetted him, and the dems admitted under Congressional review. It is testimony, and it is on the record.

Forgive my typos here...it is late and I won't check them now.
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118412 Oct 18, 2012
Guru wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, I see you are here, I'll go a few more rounds with you before I sleep...
It so happens I voted FOR obama. I don't hate him, but I realized long ago that he is a creature of habit: lies, forgeries like he and his friend Ayers bragged about, his connections and upbringing, in fact his whole life story, are filled with constructs, like his books, which talks about his "girlfriends", all made up, etc. He does this for a living, and has been ripped so many times for his lies it is sickening. The debate last night was classis...he lies about everything, from the oil debates with Mitt, he cut them 62% and 35% on the permits, drilling, etc. He lied. He also lied about the coverup on Libya. Now he is trying to create another lie which Mitt got on the record, and now will be obama's undoing on the next debate. He lied so hard, he made Crowly reiterate it. The transcripts already showed he lied about Libya being terrorism, he never mentioned it, and if he did know on dayone in the Rose Garden, why did he then spend the next 14 days saying it was the movie 6 times at the UN, sending out Ambassador Rice on 5 shows on a Sunday saying it was not terrorism, had Clinton do the same, and take out TV time in Benghazi saying it was not terrorism but a movie, and going on the View to lie again in front of millions.
Well lade, your here just perjured himself in front of the world, that will all be item #1 next debate.
Lets see you spin that one honey.
We were discussing whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii. If the American people believe that Obama lied about saying that it was terrorism they will vote against him, and that is fine with me. That is a normal thing to do if you think that someone is a liar, and you do not feel that his opponent is a liar too.

The election will be decided on such matters and on the economy.

But Obama was born in Hawaii, as his birth certificate from Hawaii shows. There is no reason to believe that Hawaii issued a birth certificate to Obama in 2007, when he was hardly known, unless there actually was an original birth certificate in its files, and there is no reason that it would say that Obama was born in Honolulu unless Obama actually was born in Honolulu.

The fact that Hawaii sent birth certificates (short and long forms) to Obama and that the original is in its files and that the facts on Obama's published long form are exactly the same as those on the birth certificate in the files has been confirmed repeatedly by the officials in Hawaii. Officials of both parties have confirmed the birth certificate, and it is further confirmed by the fact that the DOH of Hawaii sent birth notices to the Hawaii newspapers in 1961.

There is absolutely no evidence that Obama was born anywhere else than in Hawaii, and if he were actually born in a foreign country there would have to be evidence.

It should be obvious that a child born outside of the USA requires either a US visa on a foreign passport or to be entered on the mother’s US passport to get to the USA. This is not only the case now, it was the case in the 1960s as well.

Those documents or the applications for them would still exist and would have been found easily IF Obama was born outside of the USA. But no such document has been found.
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118413 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Layers are normal in pdf. That is the way that it works, and in complex documents there are many layers. This was a scan of a complex document on security paper.
...well, wrong again. Zullo handled that easily in the TV livestream and he showed it on live TV. Yes, layers can be shown, but as he said, the people that said that don't go into the document far enough. He then showed how that works over and over again. he totally took apart that argument. It is on wnd, you will have to look at the 90 min video on there that handles all of the objections you make here. He showed it all, where people like your source here went wrong, and it is very clear and is undeniable. Again, don't take my word for it, it is all on wnd. You will have to take a few minutes to see it- it is easy to find though.

You seem like a nice lady. I hear your passion for obama. But the facts are just all over the place that he is pulling the wool over your eyes and millions of others. Jut go to WND, you can spend hours there looking a the docs and I have. In the end, you will be very troubled by how all of his documents are faked. There really is no question about that if you see them for yourself.
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118414 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
<quoted text>
And you are obviously someone who hates Obama. You have not cited any facts proving that Sheriff Joe is accurate. You only say that you think that he is, yet the cited articles show that he is wrong.
Moreover, you claim that the birth certificate is forged, and you do so only by citing "birther experts"---whose expertise has not been proven, some of whom are nutty, and the others are zealots who hate Obama, often to the extent of claiming that Obama did not attend Columbia College despite the fact that Columbia University says that he did, and graduated.
When Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck and the National Review call call birthers crazy, and when the CONSERVATIVE secretary of state of Arizona asks Hawaii to confirm that it has Obama's birth certificate on file and to confirm various facts on the birth certificate, and it does (and in fact confirms ALL of the facts on the birth certificate), and the CONSERVATIVE secretary of state of Arizona rules that that is evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, then you have to realize that your cause is lost.
you emotional content is showing. again, nice try. Arpaio has over 50 years of experience in law enforcement, all around the world in fraud, forgeries, immigration, from Iran to Mexico to the US. He has been all over the world doing this for 50+ years. Zullo has 17 years experience in the same. The other 3 forensic scientists have 30 + years experience on average. They all have declared that they can prove beyond ANY doubt that obama's documents are complete frauds. This is international law enforcement, not some computer hack that works out of his bedroom like you posted.

In addition, England stated that obama's bc is a fraud. Russia did too. So did Israel. Their guys are also experts. So yoru "birther" charge just doesn't hold up. Again, nice try on the demonization that all libs do when their "facts" don't go their way.

Typical.

bottom line: in 19 days obama will be roundly thrown out of office. It will be a landslide in fact. Then you will disappear.

And know this...if he were to get in again, by any means, he would never last another 4 years in there. Scandals, like the coverup in Libya, would make him resign.

One more thing. Obama is "buying" a $35M house right now in Kailua, Oahu. He lives by me. The home is being bought by some rich friends of his- for him, and escrow closes in January 2013, timed perfectly for his retirement. His wife is already talking about it to everyone, and they are packing now.

We know this in Hawaii, do you?
American Lady

Danville, KY

#118415 Oct 18, 2012
Pollster pulls out of Fla., NC and Va., says Obama can’t win there

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/polls/261...
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118416 Oct 18, 2012
Re: "albercrumbs as we call the midget hippie, could not find it..."

NO, he never said that. He said that he could not find any document that could be released. He was referring to a document other than the birth certificate, which has been released. Abercrombie certainly never said that he could not find the birth certificate.

At least three named officials, the two Republican appointed officials who confirmed its existence in October 2008, Director of Health Fukino and Registrar of Vital Statistics Onaka. Fukino then stated in 2009 that she had checked again, and that there was indeed a birth certificate in the files. The third official is the current director of health, Fuddy, who stated that she had seen Obama's long form birth certificate being copied from the original in the files.

It is possible that former Republican governor Lingle did not see it, but she accepts the words of Onaka and Fukino. And the idea that she would in 2009 just to get elected as senator in 2012 is far fetched. She did not have to say anything.

A FOURTH person must have seen Obama's birth certificate in the files, and that is the clerk who filled in the form that generated the short-form birth certificate. The procedure for that is for a clerk to read off the facts on the document in the files and enter them on the computer form that generates the short form birth certificate. Thus there must have been a document in the files in 2007, and it must have said that Obama was born in Honolulu in 1961.
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118417 Oct 18, 2012
Re:

"They all have declared that they can prove beyond ANY doubt that obama's documents are complete frauds."


But the National Review, Ann Coulter and the Conservative secretary of state of Arizona do not believe them, and neither does Mitt Romney (who addressed Obama as "Mr President") or Paul Ryan ( http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/201... ), and I once called up the campaign of Ron Paul, and they told me that Ron Paul also believes that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a Natural Born US citizen.

There have been law enforcement officials who have made nutty claims in the past, and Sheriff Joe is another one of them

He is certainly wrong on the meaning of the numeric codes:


http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obama...

and

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/indict...
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118418 Oct 18, 2012
Re: "That is also a common practice in Hawaii for people to put it in the paper. people from Japan do it by the thousands, or used to, and it is done for reasons which I will describe now. "

HOWEVER, the birth notices appeared in sections of the two newspapers called "Health Bureau Statistics," which as the name shows---and as both the DOH and the papers confirm---could only be sent to the papers by the DOH of Hawaii. And the DOH only did it for births in Hawaii. Hawaii law 1961 did not allow the DOH to issue a birth certificate to someone who was not born in Hawaii.
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118419 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
<quoted text>
We were discussing whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii. If the American people believe that Obama lied about saying that it was terrorism they will vote against him, and that is fine with me. That is a normal thing to do if you think that someone is a liar, and you do not feel that his opponent is a liar too.
The election will be decided on such matters and on the economy.
But Obama was born in Hawaii, as his birth certificate from Hawaii shows. There is no reason to believe that Hawaii issued a birth certificate to Obama in 2007, when he was hardly known, unless there actually was an original birth certificate in its files, and there is no reason that it would say that Obama was born in Honolulu unless Obama actually was born in Honolulu.
The fact that Hawaii sent birth certificates (short and long forms) to Obama and that the original is in its files and that the facts on Obama's published long form are exactly the same as those on the birth certificate in the files has been confirmed repeatedly by the officials in Hawaii. Officials of both parties have confirmed the birth certificate, and it is further confirmed by the fact that the DOH of Hawaii sent birth notices to the Hawaii newspapers in 1961.
There is absolutely no evidence that Obama was born anywhere else than in Hawaii, and if he were actually born in a foreign country there would have to be evidence.
It should be obvious that a child born outside of the USA requires either a US visa on a foreign passport or to be entered on the mother’s US passport to get to the USA. This is not only the case now, it was the case in the 1960s as well.
Those documents or the applications for them would still exist and would have been found easily IF Obama was born outside of the USA. But no such document has been found.
It goes like this:

Hawaii did not issue him a birth certificate in 2007 as Arpaio/Zullo showed. That bc you referenced that the WH showed us exists nowhere on earth. It was 100% constructed in cyberspace as the forensic analysis by Zullo showed. it also showed a dozen different fonts for the same letters...like R's, S's, E's, etc. One typewriter cannot do that. It has one E, one R, one S, etc. In addition, the signatures were imported, can't do that either. The most layers possible that you reference is about 8 layers as Zullo said, and yes you can do that with photoshop. But you can't get 45+ layers out of that document as he showed unless you import a lot of other stuff that should not be there, and is does not show up on other bc's of people born right before and after him. Therefore: fraud is involved. Arpaio also has traced all of this back to the WH and have it down to 20 mintues before it was sent and they know who did it.

They have all the data on those typewriters. The bc obama showed from the WH can't exist because it has dozens of different fonts that never existed in 1961. The fonts were from the 70's and 80's, copied and pasted into the document from different sources.

I could go on and on. Please go to wnd and see it for yourself. It is extensive and you can see it for yourself. I guarantee you you will not be saying what you are saying once you do that. Your source is almost comical in the above. he addresses none of what I described here, which in only 1% of the data, if that.
Ellen1

Arlington, MA

#118420 Oct 18, 2012
Re:

" England stated that obama's bc is a fraud. Russia did too. So did Israel. "

It is you that are letting your nutty instincts take over.

ENGLAND did not state. A single nut in England stated.

RUSSIA did not state, a nut did.

Isreal did not state, a nut did.

And all of these nuts were simply basing their comments on the comments of the original birther "experts."

Layers are normal in pdf, particularly in complex documents. There is no evidence of "kerning"--just the normal skipping of a manual typewriter. A scan of a document on security paper will of course look somewhat different than the paper document; that is what security paper is supposed to do. "TXE" is what the scan and pdf do to a faint "THE."

And the officials in Hawaii continue to confirm the facts on Obama's birth certificate, and there continues to be no evidence that he was born anywhere else.
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118421 Oct 18, 2012
correction the 2007 bc you referenced is not what I was talking about Ellen. I was referencing the one the WH put out that was looked at. I am sure the 2007 was was a simple computer generated copy that is not a legal document. It says so on the ducument as I remember trough some language or a coding. WND covers all of that, and they confirm what I am talking about here, but I do not remember it as it was easily dismissed as not being an official document, just a computer generated copy for convenience. It is also a short form, and there is a long form one too, which was easily discredited from Arpaio's group. Like I said, you will have to go to WND for that info, I don't have it here and I don't want to speculate. They have it all though.

“GONE FISHING”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#118422 Oct 18, 2012
Guru wrote:
<quoted text>
It goes like this:
Hawaii did not issue him a birth certificate in 2007 as Arpaio/Zullo showed. That bc you referenced that the WH showed us exists nowhere on earth. It was 100% constructed in cyberspace as the forensic analysis by Zullo showed. it also showed a dozen different fonts for the same letters...like R's, S's, E's, etc. One typewriter cannot do that. It has one E, one R, one S, etc. In addition, the signatures were imported, can't do that either. The most layers possible that you reference is about 8 layers as Zullo said, andfor yourself. It is extensive and you can see it for yourself. I guarantee you you will not be saying what you are saying once you do that. Your source is almost comical in the above. he addresses none of what I described here, which in only 1% of the data, if that.
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP,do you have time to to take a ride on my flying saucer later We could go to OZ and see your leader...

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#118423 Oct 18, 2012
Just what the internet has said all along, the guards had NO weapons. Yep, armed with flash lights and batons!!! And three months after the British and the Red Cross pulled out.
Obama is guilty of criminal negligent homicide!!!

For Benghazi diplomatic security, U.S. relied on small British firm: By Tabassum Zakaria, Susan Cornwell and Hadeel Al Shalchi | Reuters

WASHINGTON/BENGHAZI, Libya (Reuters)- The State Department's decision to hire Blue Mountain Group to guard the ill-fated U.S. diplomatic mission in Benghazi, Libya, entrusted security tasks to a little-known British company instead of the large firms it usually uses in overseas danger zones.
The contract was largely based on expediency, U.S. officials have said, since no one knew how long the temporary mission would remain in the Libyan city. The cradle of last year's uprising that ended Muammar Gaddafi's 42-year rule, Benghazi has been plagued by rising violence in recent months.
Security practices at the diplomatic compound, where Blue Mountain guards patrolled with flashlights and batons instead of guns,
http://news.yahoo.com/benghazi-diplomatic-sec...
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118425 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
Re: "albercrumbs as we call the midget hippie, could not find it..."
NO, he never said that. He said that he could not find any document that could be released. He was referring to a document other than the birth certificate, which has been released. Abercrombie certainly never said that he could not find the birth certificate.
At least three named officials, the two Republican appointed officials who confirmed its existence in October 2008, Director of Health Fukino and Registrar of Vital Statistics Onaka. Fukino then stated in 2009 that she had checked again, and that there was indeed a birth certificate in the files. The third official is the current director of health, Fuddy, who stated that she had seen Obama's long form birth certificate being copied from the original in the files.
It is possible that former Republican governor Lingle did not see it, but she accepts the words of Onaka and Fukino. And the idea that she would in 2009 just to get elected as senator in 2012 is far fetched. She did not have to say anything.
A FOURTH person must have seen Obama's birth certificate in the files, and that is the clerk who filled in the form that generated the short-form birth certificate. The procedure for that is for a clerk to read off the facts on the document in the files and enter them on the computer form that generates the short form birth certificate. Thus there must have been a document in the files in 2007, and it must have said that Obama was born in Honolulu in 1961.
I know all of this, and all of it has been discredited. It is all on WND, but crumbs said he could not find it, but he did find something "written down". We know all about that here. Fuddy is wrong also, so is Fukino is is at the center of the coverup, and she has changed her story several times. We have interviewed the person in charge of checking all the data, that is the 1-9 references. She said that obama's bc cannot be real, as they never listed blacks as "African", etc, with a 9 by it, which means not give, etc. You know all of this. There is no such race as "African". Africa is a continent, not a race, and no others were listed as such. Besides, African can be whites, blacks, arabs, etc. An obvious error that cannot be explained by any creditable sourcing. In those day syou were negro, colored, etc. Not "African".

Again all of this is on WND by law enforcement.

“GONE FISHING”

Since: Oct 11

Location hidden

#118426 Oct 18, 2012
If I was trying to get this coward romney elected I guess I would be posting lies like you burther bologna teafools...AMERICAN TRAITOR MITT ROMNEY
Guru

Canyon Country, CA

#118427 Oct 18, 2012
Ellen1 wrote:
Re:
"They all have declared that they can prove beyond ANY doubt that obama's documents are complete frauds."
But the National Review, Ann Coulter and the Conservative secretary of state of Arizona do not believe them, and neither does Mitt Romney (who addressed Obama as "Mr President") or Paul Ryan ( http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/201... ), and I once called up the campaign of Ron Paul, and they told me that Ron Paul also believes that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a Natural Born US citizen.
There have been law enforcement officials who have made nutty claims in the past, and Sheriff Joe is another one of them
He is certainly wrong on the meaning of the numeric codes:
http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obama...
and
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/indict...
look, Ann Coulter is often wrong. She even said that last night on Bill Maher. She said Romney would never get this far, and now he is leading Gallup by 51% to 45% for obama. Again, I could go on, but you are just quoting everybody on the planet and not giving facts like I am. Cutting and pasting can go on forever, and your sources are weak at best. Again, nice try.

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