Once slow-moving threat, global warming speeds up, leaving litt...

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When Bill Clinton took office in 1993, global warming was a slow-moving environmental problem that was easy to ignore.

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Coal is King

Benton, KY

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#36688
Jun 26, 2013
 

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An attack on coal is an attempt to destroy civilization itself.

"Coal embodies our chance of a world civilization. It is the material form in which the possibility of peace and ease, beauty and learning, cooperation and brotherhood, have come to the human race.... Before coal was harnessed to the looms of England, before the stored energy of the sun replaced hand labor at the wheels and gears of her newly invented machines, there was no such thing as a world civilization. There was indeed nothing to base a world civilization upon...the race as a whole had its entire attentin focussed on the effort to get enough food and clothing and shelter so that it would live and not die.... The limits of civilization were primarily the mechanical limitations of man's ability to produce. So long as his only ways to drive machinery were by wind and water, the strength of domesticated animals, and his own brawn, it was impossible for him to accumulate sufficient reserves of food and clothing so that instead of thinking what he should eat and what he would put on, he could think a little of how to make life good.... Before the coming of coal man had to satisfy his longing for peace and knowledge and companionship through his dreams.... But with the coming of coal thre rose the possibility of producing more than enough to keep everybody alive."

--From "The Coming of Coal" by Robert W. Bruere, for the Ecucatinal Committee of the Commission on the Church and Social Science of the Federal Council of Churches of Christ in America, 1922.

“So long to you, Righties”

Since: Jan 12

keep suckin' and whiffin'!

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#36689
Jun 26, 2013
 

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Coal is King wrote:
An attack on coal is an attempt to destroy civilization itself.
"Coal embodies our chance of a world civilization. It is the material form in which the possibility of peace and ease, beauty and learning, cooperation and brotherhood, have come to the human race....EDITED......Council of Churches of Christ in America, 1922.
'Coal is CHRIST, you are CRUCIFYING CHRIST by attacking COAL!!!'

LOL

I'll hand it to you, that was one hilarious piece of Big Energy bulls--t....:)
Retired Farmer

Hopkinsville, KY

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#36690
Jun 26, 2013
 

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tha Professor wrote:
<quoted text>
'Coal is CHRIST, you are CRUCIFYING CHRIST by attacking COAL!!!'
LOL
I'll hand it to you, that was one hilarious piece of Big Energy bulls--t....:)
Uh, Professor,

You might ought to read that book that he quoted from - all of it. It is apparent that he didn't. Nope. King Coal probably just went to Google Books and put in "coal" and "civilization" and then quoted what came up.'Cause line 1 of chapter 1 is a real shocker:

"Scientists tell us that the energy poured by the sun on the Desert of Sahara in a single day exceeds by fourfold the energy stored in the annual production of all the coal fields in the world. They dream of a time when the radiant energy of the sun will be captured and turned to the uses of man. Then the wheels of our myriad machines will spin with the sun and stars."

When that book was written 91 years ago, the day when solar technology would replace coal was thought to be a hundred years away. For someone living in 1922 it was more than a lifetime away, a time to dream about that the author knew neither he nor his immediate readers would live to see. For us living today, it is only 9 years away.
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

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#36691
Jun 26, 2013
 
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Uh, Professor,
You might ought to read that book that he quoted from - all of it. It is apparent that he didn't. Nope. King Coal probably just went to Google Books and put in "coal" and "civilization" and then quoted what came up.'Cause line 1 of chapter 1 is a real shocker:
"Scientists tell us that the energy poured by the sun on the Desert of Sahara in a single day exceeds by fourfold the energy stored in the annual production of all the coal fields in the world. They dream of a time when the radiant energy of the sun will be captured and turned to the uses of man. Then the wheels of our myriad machines will spin with the sun and stars."
When that book was written 91 years ago, the day when solar technology would replace coal was thought to be a hundred years away. For someone living in 1922 it was more than a lifetime away, a time to dream about that the author knew neither he nor his immediate readers would live to see. For us living today, it is only 9 years away.
It had already happened even by 1922.

I have pictures of solar water heaters on the roofs of buildings in San Francisco, circa 1890. I don't know how well they worked, but dozens of houses had them.

In the Southern US, the sun was taken into account, with our wide shaded porches and shotgun houses. In the Mediterranean region, houses are massive and light colored, to both use and defeat the heat.

Even "dumb" animals know to use the sun in various ways, and how to avoid it if need be.

We all know this in our DNA. We have lived with the sun for billions of years, from our most primitive forms, to our "apex" of evolutionary development today.

Those SF heaters were the birth; we live now in the teenage years of active/passive solar, when it's growing wildly and weirdly, and trying to find it's place in the world while improving constantly.

“So long to you, Righties”

Since: Jan 12

keep suckin' and whiffin'!

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#36692
Jun 27, 2013
 

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Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Uh, Professor,
You might ought to read that book that he quoted from - all of it. It is apparent that he didn't. Nope. King Coal probably just went to Google Books and put in "coal" and "civilization" and then quoted what came up.'Cause line 1 of chapter 1 is a real shocker:
"Scientists tell us that the energy poured by the sun on the Desert of Sahara in a single day exceeds by fourfold the energy stored in the annual production of all the coal fields in the world. They dream of a time when the radiant energy of the sun will be captured and turned to the uses of man. Then the wheels of our myriad machines will spin with the sun and stars."
When that book was written 91 years ago, the day when solar technology would replace coal was thought to be a hundred years away. For someone living in 1922 it was more than a lifetime away, a time to dream about that the author knew neither he nor his immediate readers would live to see. For us living today, it is only 9 years away.
Wow, thanks, that's very impressive. I should know better than simply condemn what are often the out-of-context citations of Deniers, huh?:)
Merle Haggard

Greenville, KY

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#36693
Jun 27, 2013
 

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gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
It had already happened even by 1922.
I have pictures of solar water heaters on the roofs of buildings in San Francisco, circa 1890. I don't know how well they worked, but dozens of houses had them.
In the Southern US, the sun was taken into account, with our wide shaded porches and shotgun houses. In the Mediterranean region, houses are massive and light colored, to both use and defeat the heat.
Even "dumb" animals know to use the sun in various ways, and how to avoid it if need be.
We all know this in our DNA. We have lived with the sun for billions of years, from our most primitive forms, to our "apex" of evolutionary development today.
Those SF heaters were the birth; we live now in the teenage years of active/passive solar, when it's growing wildly and weirdly, and trying to find it's place in the world while improving constantly.
When they find out how to burn water,
And the gasoline car is gone.
When an airplane flies without any fuel,
And the sunlight heats our home.
One of these days when the air clears up,
And the sun comes shinin' through.
We'll all be drinkin' free bubble-up,
An' eatin' that rainbow stew.

Eatin' rainbow stew in a silver spoon,
Underneath that sky of blue.
All be drinkin' free bubble-up,
An' eatin' that rainbow stew.
CTM

New Fairfield, CT

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#36694
Jun 28, 2013
 
Retired Farmer wrote:
Here is a good, balanced article on this from National Geographic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energ...
Please note three important facts:
1. Coal now generates only 40 percent of the electricity in the US.
2. Most of the coal fired power plants in the US are 50 years old or older. They are already nearing the end of their service life.
3. Natural gas is plentiful, cheaper in every way than coal, and far less polluting. Not only does it produce far less CO2, it does not produce the mountains of dangerously toxic ash that coal does.
Something else interesting I learned too. The coal industry makes it sound like, and a lot of miners in the coal mining counties (only 36 of Kentucky's 120 counties have coal)believe, that there are hundreds of thousands of coal miners. There are in fact fewer than 90,000 coal miners in the entire USA. As of 2010, the solar power industry employed more people (119,000) than did coal.
..........To bad we won't have any water to drink. The tests from the state and federal health labs have now raised the non-detect level of everything to the point that anything in your drinking water has to be about the size of a golf ball to be detected. Even stuff that at 0.0005 ppm will poison you does not show until 0.5000. This is the feds new design to give everyone "clean" drinking water. Just remember that when you're doing a run for the "cure" or making a donation to end cancer. Usually the big pharma companies get the money for more research and every cancer victim is another lab rat.
Coal is King

Cadiz, KY

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#36695
Jun 29, 2013
 
Here is a thought from a coal miner in Pike County, Kentucky:

"the war on coal could be solved very easy. If all the coal operators would shut down all mines in ky, wva. and va. for 2 months or more. THIS WOULD FIX THE PROBLEM, WHEN THE POWER GOES OUT THEY WILL BE CRYING TO TURN THE LIGHTS BACK ON.COAL PRICES WOULD GO UP AND WAGES WILL GO UP. EVERYONE HAS TO PULL TOGETHER AND FIX THIS ."

Why not? Control of the sources of energy is power. The Arabs proved that with the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973. Control of labor is power. The United Mine Workers Union proved that in the 1940s when they struck, shut down the mines, and turned coal mining from a low pay occupation into a good paying one. Control of capital is power. Business proves that every day.

The UMW, the mine owners, and the power companies should agree to a coal strike by all three, not against each other, but in cooperation. The miners should go home, the mine owners should lock the gates, and the power plant operators let the fires go out and the generators stop. Conditions in the big cities would get unbearable in days. Then, the coal coalition could present its terms of surrender to Obama: Resign!
SpaceBlues

Houston, TX

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#36696
Jun 29, 2013
 
Let's learn some history:

Domestic oil supplies in the highly regulated US domestic market fell behind demand, which shot up at an unexpectedly high rate beginning in 1967. Restrictions on oil imports triggered spot shortages and price increases which, in turn, led to Congressional hearings and widespread public criticism of the oil companies. The supply situation grew so alarming that the oil import quota was lifted in April 1973. Thus the energy crisis which is remembered as the result of the use of the oil weapon in the October 1973 war had, in reality, begun months--if not years--before.
The 1973 decision by Arab oil exporters to use the oil weapon could have been spotted by an effective political "early warning" system. Throughout 1972-73, Arab governments promised openly and repeatedly to use the oil weapon against the United States if a Middle East settlement conforming to United Nations Resolution 242, requiring Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories, was not achieved. Saudi Arabian officials went so far as to call in representatives of the four parents of Aramco to deliver their message. They said that another war between Israel and Arab governments was imminent and that, when it came, Arab oil would be cut off to supporters of Israel. One parent, Mobil, regarded this warning as so serious that it took out an ad in The New York Times to urge a settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The other Aramco parents relied on private channels to communicate their message.

More?

http://www.ic.ucsc.edu/~rlipsch/Pol177/Tetrea...
SpaceBlues

Houston, TX

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#36697
Jun 29, 2013
 
The most important effect of the embargo was to consolidate the oil price revolution. Bids for spot or individual cargoes of crude oil during the crisis reached very high levels. The "price hawks" in OPEC, countries like Libya, Iraq, and Iran, insisted that OPEC members stop negotiating with the companies and simply set their own prices--very high. Others, like Saudi Arabia, supported setting an OPEC price but opposed the size of the price increase advocated by the price hawks. The two groups fought during OPEC's December 1973 meeting and eventually compromised on a price between the two extremes. This price was four times higher than the average price of OPEC crude just a year earlier.[ibid]

How does that apply to coal?
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

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#36698
Jun 29, 2013
 
Coal is King wrote:
Here is a thought from a coal miner in Pike County, Kentucky:
"the war on coal could be solved very easy. If all the coal operators would shut down all mines in ky, wva. and va. for 2 months or more. THIS WOULD FIX THE PROBLEM, WHEN THE POWER GOES OUT THEY WILL BE CRYING TO TURN THE LIGHTS BACK ON.COAL PRICES WOULD GO UP AND WAGES WILL GO UP. EVERYONE HAS TO PULL TOGETHER AND FIX THIS ."
Why not? Control of the sources of energy is power. The Arabs proved that with the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973. Control of labor is power. The United Mine Workers Union proved that in the 1940s when they struck, shut down the mines, and turned coal mining from a low pay occupation into a good paying one. Control of capital is power. Business proves that every day.
The UMW, the mine owners, and the power companies should agree to a coal strike by all three, not against each other, but in cooperation. The miners should go home, the mine owners should lock the gates, and the power plant operators let the fires go out and the generators stop. Conditions in the big cities would get unbearable in days. Then, the coal coalition could present its terms of surrender to Obama: Resign!
You so funny.

That sounds like a great idea for a made-for-TV movie. Have you pitched it to anyone?
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

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#36699
Jun 29, 2013
 
Is anyone here going to the climate leadership conference in Chicago, July 30-Aug. 1?

I've received an invitation and am thinking about going. I can visit my brother there again, too.

Maybe AL and I will grab a brewski and discuss conquering the world.

“So long to you, Righties”

Since: Jan 12

keep suckin' and whiffin'!

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#36700
Jun 29, 2013
 

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Coal is King wrote:
Here is a thought from a coal miner in Pike County, Kentucky:
"the war on coal could be solved very easy. If all the coal operators would shut down all mines in ky, wva. and va. for 2 months or more. THIS WOULD FIX THE PROBLEM, WHEN THE POWER GOES OUT THEY WILL BE CRYING TO TURN THE LIGHTS BACK ON.COAL PRICES WOULD GO UP AND WAGES WILL GO UP. EVERYONE HAS TO PULL TOGETHER AND FIX THIS ."
Why not? Control of the sources of energy is power. The Arabs proved that with the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973. Control of labor is power. The United Mine Workers Union proved that in the 1940s when they struck, shut down the mines, and turned coal mining from a low pay occupation into a good paying one. Control of capital is power. Business proves that every day.
The UMW, the mine owners, and the power companies should agree to a coal strike by all three, not against each other, but in cooperation. The miners should go home, the mine owners should lock the gates, and the power plant operators let the fires go out and the generators stop. Conditions in the big cities would get unbearable in days. Then, the coal coalition could present its terms of surrender to Obama: Resign!
Try it. Obama would quite rightly call in the National Guard and you'd go back to mining coal pretty damn quick.

A few dead Kentuckians or West Virginians more or less wouldn't make much difference...
Coal is King

Paducah, KY

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#36702
Jun 29, 2013
 

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tha Professor wrote:
<quoted text>
Try it. Obama would quite rightly call in the National Guard and you'd go back to mining coal pretty damn quick.
A few dead Kentuckians or West Virginians more or less wouldn't make much difference...
Why would Emperor O. do that? He wants rid of coal, right?

Besides, it wouldn't turn out like you seem to think it would. Ever hear of a guy named Nicolae Ceaucescu? He was the communist dictator of Rumania, sort of its uncrowned king. He sent his goons into a coal mining town called Timisoara to put down what amounted to a sit down strike by coal miners. It was a little more than the gestapo could handle so they called on the local version of the National Guard. Well, the Guard, like the Kentucky Guard, was composed of a lot of miners and their relatives. It just didn't go like old Nick planned. Want to send some city slickers from New York City or Chicago into these mountains, against locals...
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

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#36704
Jun 29, 2013
 

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Coal is King wrote:
Here is a thought from a coal miner in Pike County, Kentucky:
"the war on coal could be solved very easy. If all the coal operators would shut down all mines in ky, wva. and va. for 2 months or more. THIS WOULD FIX THE PROBLEM, WHEN THE POWER GOES OUT THEY WILL BE CRYING TO TURN THE LIGHTS BACK ON.COAL PRICES WOULD GO UP AND WAGES WILL GO UP. EVERYONE HAS TO PULL TOGETHER AND FIX THIS ."
Why not? Control of the sources of energy is power. The Arabs proved that with the Arab Oil Embargo in 1973. Control of labor is power. The United Mine Workers Union proved that in the 1940s when they struck, shut down the mines, and turned coal mining from a low pay occupation into a good paying one. Control of capital is power. Business proves that every day.
The UMW, the mine owners, and the power companies should agree to a coal strike by all three, not against each other, but in cooperation. The miners should go home, the mine owners should lock the gates, and the power plant operators let the fires go out and the generators stop. Conditions in the big cities would get unbearable in days. Then, the coal coalition could present its terms of surrender to Obama: Resign!
You're way off, fool. Coal has been used less lately because it's dirty, dangerous, and expensive.

It's economics, not politics, that's killing coal. You really need a reality check.
SpaceBlues

Houston, TX

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#36705
Jun 29, 2013
 
gcaveman1 wrote:
Is anyone here going to the climate leadership conference in Chicago, July 30-Aug. 1?
I've received an invitation and am thinking about going. I can visit my brother there again, too.
Maybe AL and I will grab a brewski and discuss conquering the world.
Is this the one:

http://realisingchange.blogspot.com/2013/04/c...
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

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#36706
Jun 29, 2013
 
SpaceBlues wrote:
<quoted text>Is this the one:
http://realisingchange.blogspot.com/2013/04/c...
Yep. Dat de one.
Coal is King

Greenville, KY

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#36708
Jun 30, 2013
 

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More angry voices from Appalachia:

--From Pikeville, KY

“What anti coal people will come to realize someday is they have been lied to by people calling themselves "enviromentalist". But when they do wake up it will be too late to save the country. Everyday now,our dollar becomes more worthless because of the overprinting of dollars by the Federal Reserve. Look for the dollar to crash within the next 3 years. A nation is only as good as it's money and the value of the dollar will be gone. We will be at the mercy of countries who will take our coal and burn it and not worry one bit about climate change.”

--From Georgetown, KY

“He [Obama] hates coal, all coal, Eastern, Western and in between! Yes they are starting to use that [western] coal in the southern coal power plants and the EPA started crying about the coal dust from the coal train cars. They are talking about making them put tarps on them! Follow the money! you will see Natural Gas Commercials for every clean coal commercial. Nat Gas burns 50's cleaner than coal and they are poised to take over coal for the energy source for power generation. 50% cleaner and no fly ash or particulate matter, no heavy metals to speak of. Natural Gas will meet the new clean air standard until the renewables come on line. Western Coal will take the same hit as Eastern Coal, may get to burn it a little longer for the plants that already have the scrubbers but not much longer. Natural Gas my boy, watch all the politicians running for the natural gas lobby and money, it's the new flavor of the day! Coal is out, Eastern, Western, northern and southern...unless we can sell it to China and India and as I said the bit O will not allow that, coal was killed on June 24 of this month.”

--From Pikeville, KY (reply to the above)

“I disagree with your take that he hates coal. I believe he loves it, he just wants to own it all as well as the oil and natural gas. Believe me, coal mining will not end in KY or anywhere else. The great economic upheaval is coming and somebody or some people are coming for the coal and everything else. Of course the laborers won't be paid much.”

--From Pikeville, KY

“[Coal state senators and representatives] can't stop Obama. But Obama also doesn't need the Democrats anymore either and some of them realize that. He will go around Congress and do as he pleases. Coal mining,oil drilling,gun control,etc. whatever. If Congress doesn't comply...just issue an excuetive order. America is going to pay for it's sins like abortion. This country has allowed over 50 million of it's potential citizens to be aborted or murdered.God has allowed Obama to rule and he will. There will soon be 50 new million(mostly Catholic) citizens who will also have a huge impact on what this country becomes. America....the newest banana republic.”

Since: Jul 11

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#36709
Jun 30, 2013
 

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Coal is King wrote:
More angry voices from Appalachia:
--From Pikeville, KY
........ There will soon be 50 new million(mostly Catholic) citizens who will also have a huge impact on what this country becomes. America....the newest banana republic.”
I think that says it all, while you desperately want to hang on to past like an anvil around your neck. Smarter people have moved on.
I keep using the analogy of the town blacksmith when the auto-mobile was invented. Do you think he would be screaming Obama hates horses or start doing something different other than re-shoeing horses all day and repairing wagon wheels.

It seems to me, there has been ample profits in the coal industry to invest in some decent R&D research to burn coal clean. But if all you got is to shoot the messenger hoping the global warming thing would all go away then its a lost cause. Start investing in the brain power to solve your problem rather than soap boxing trying to defend what the rest of the world has said ENOUGH Already!
Coal is King

Greenville, KY

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#36710
Jun 30, 2013
 

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Even if "R&D" was viable, where is the money to pay for it. If Obama really cared about American workers why is he spending $160 million of taxpayers money on an African vacation? Why is he leaving behind a $2 billion check of American taxpayer's money to pay for development there? Do you realize how much $2 billion is? That's enough money to pay the salaries of 45,000 coal miners for a full year!

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