“Anasasis Xenophontis.”

Since: Dec 08

over there.

#29835 Dec 6, 2012
waco1909 wrote:
<quoted text> Hate always finds a way there seven....free flow of information is the biggest enemy for muslims....their women are saying hmmmm....why can't I GO TO SCHOOL? WHY CAN'T I DRIVE? Why can't I be a DOCTOR?
exact point of my hatred towards religion.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#29836 Dec 6, 2012
emlu wrote:
<quoted text> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden
"God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the Towers, but after the situation became unbearable—and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon—I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed—when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way: to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."
— Osama bin Laden, 2004
And "our people" likely means "Islamic people" as we can see from so much Bin Laden has said. Trying to separate the two is to ignore so many of his statements.

“Anasasis Xenophontis.”

Since: Dec 08

over there.

#29837 Dec 6, 2012
Makin bacon wrote:
<quoted text>
Work two more years and you may learn the difference in grammar and spelling. I questioned your spelling, not your grammar.
spelling is a part of grammar, please i was a honors student in literature.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_spelling_conside...

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#29838 Dec 6, 2012
emlu wrote:
<quoted text> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden
"God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the Towers, but after the situation became unbearable—and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon—I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed—when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the U.S. Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way: to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women."
— Osama bin Laden, 2004
Also from the same site.

According to former CIA analyst Michael Scheuer, who led the CIA's hunt for Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaeda leader was motivated by a belief that U.S. foreign policy has oppressed, killed, or otherwise harmed Muslims in the Middle East,[48] condensed in the phrase "They hate us for what we do, not who we are."
Bin Laden also said only the restoration of Sharia law would "set things right" in the Muslim world, and that alternatives such as "pan-Arabism, socialism, communism, democracy" must be opposed.[49] This belief, in conjunction with violent jihad, has sometimes been called Qutbism after being promoted by Sayyid Qutb.[50] Bin Laden believed that Afghanistan, under the rule of Mullah Omar's Taliban, was "the only Islamic country" in the Muslim world.[51] Bin Laden consistently dwelt on the need for violent jihad to right what he believed were injustices against Muslims perpetrated by the United States and sometimes by other non-Muslim states,[52] the need to eliminate the state of Israel, and the necessity of forcing the United States to withdraw from the Middle East. He also called on Americans to "reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling, and usury", in an October 2002 letter.[53]

So it looks as if Bin Laden felt America was attacking Islamic people and thus retaliated. Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity. Thus religious based.

Of course, religious or not, one in this region may have seen a need to attack America, but it was all so easy to do when people of blind faith feel it is about an attack of their god, and one would be rewarded in heaven for attacking.

This is the case in many wars. As I noted, the bible has many stories of Moses and his men attacking nations for similar ideals.
TSF

Kenly, NC

#29839 Dec 6, 2012
As your clarified perspective is not denial but based on your estimation of probability, I agree that is acceptable logic in terms of scientific thinking. Incidentally, Galileo and Newton were very religious persons but disconnected from the church dogma. My perception of religion is belief in and connection with God. I regard dogma as the representation of laws and ordinances imposed upon others by church organizations for the purpose of protecting the organization and forcing the assimilation of membership. The remarkable thing about humans is the widespread belief in God, whether that God would be Budda, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus , etc. That tells me that billions of human persons feel a connection to a God, and that connection is what I regard as religion. That connection is what I think St Thomas Aquinas was talking about when he said believers need no explaination and that no explaination is possible for non believers. An example would be the story of non believer Paul on the road to Damascus
when he was blinded for three days by a flash of perception. Afterwards, no explaination was necessary to him. Its kind of like studying fruitlessly for days to understand a complex mathematical theorum and being on the verge of giving up continuing to try, when suddenly, you understand and realize that it was actually simple to begin with. I am not trying to change your mind about God. I am just relating to you kind of what to expect when/if it happens to you.
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Just so you know, I have never denied the possibility of a god existing. I base my view on the likelihood of a god existing. I withhold belief due to the lack of likelihood.
When I say a specific god is a myth, it is more due to the knowns about the god and evidence against the claims of said god.
For example, the god of the bible is said to have created all "kinds" (as in all species) in one day. Science can show massive amounts of evidence that the different kinds of animals came to be in stages of time, not even close to what the bible claims.
This is why literalist believers claim evolution is false. Now if you wish to claim the bible is of metaphor and not literal, your god is not the god I might be talking about.
Now when you speak of understanding the mind of god, I think it is only human to project what the god may be thinking. Any all powerful god would surely understand this human instinct.
The bible describes what god wants, and thus man will project what the god may think. Just as when you try to understand the mind of your mate.
If you cannot comprehend the mind of your god, then just what are you thinking of your god? What is it you think your god does or wants? I am asking, what is the point of belief in your god, if you do not know what he wants or thinks?
If the bible is of metaphor, then would that not mean it is a guide to how god thinks and thus wants you to act?
BTW, most scientists are agnostic. It is the "open minded" way.
I think technically most atheists are agnostic. Most would be open to the idea a god exist, they just withhold belief until evidence or some better reasoning is produced to show likelihood.
I also think many agnostics are also atheist, as they do not believe in a theistic god, they just remain open to the idea a bit more.
Even prominent atheist, Richard Dawkins, when penned down on this, says he is technically agnostic, because he leaves open a .01% chance a god could exist.
So they problem is, the English language is not sufficient in categorizing us to well. I have seen countless debates of the definitions of these terms.
Note, there is no term for the non belief in unicorns. And if one does not see a likelihood they exist, he need not withhold disbelief.
You note scripture, so does that mean you think one source of scripture is more accurate than any others?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#29840 Dec 6, 2012
Makin bacon wrote:
<quoted text>
Mike, Wiki gives differing reasons than you and maybe that's why I'm confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_...
With that being said, I always thought the attacks were the result of the U.S. not releasing the Blind Sheik, the man that orchestrated the WTC. It's not mind blowing to me that after the attack on the WTC that I would find a correlation between the 9/11 attack and repeated demands for his release because Bin Laden spoke frequently about it.
Wiki states their were various reasons given, and experts postulate on them.
This is also from the site you posted.

..On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim..."[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_...

Some middle-east scholars like Michael Scott Doran and Peter Bergen have argued that 9/11 was a strategic way to provoke America into a war that incites a pan-Islamist revolution.
Michael Scott Doran argued that the attacks are best understood as being part of a religious conflict within the Muslim world. In an essay, Doran argued that Bin Laden's followers: "consider themselves an island of true believers surrounded by a sea of iniquity".[17] Doran further argued that bin Laden hoped U.S. retaliation would unite the faithful against the West, sparking revolutions in Arab nations and elsewhere; and that the Osama bin Laden videos were attempting to provoke a visceral reaction in the Middle East aimed at a violent reaction by Muslim citizens to increased U.S. involvement in their region.[18]
Correspondent Peter Bergen argued that the attacks were part of a plan to cause the United States to increase its military and cultural presence in the Middle East, thereby forcing Muslims to confront the idea of a non-Muslim government and establish conservative Islamic governments in the region.[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_...

As you likely know, wiki does not go to great depths on many things. Something this large is complex. To summarize it into a wiki page would leave out massive amounts of the story.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#29841 Dec 6, 2012
Makin bacon wrote:
<quoted text>
Mike, Wiki gives differing reasons than you and maybe that's why I'm confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_...
With that being said, I always thought the attacks were the result of the U.S. not releasing the Blind Sheik, the man that orchestrated the WTC. It's not mind blowing to me that after the attack on the WTC that I would find a correlation between the 9/11 attack and repeated demands for his release because Bin Laden spoke frequently about it.
Of course, much of the tension is between Muslims and the Jews battle over holy land. This becomes a tit for tat fight that is fueled by ideas of religion.
As you likely see in the wiki site, part of the dispute is Israel and America support for them.

“physics is your friend”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#29842 Dec 6, 2012
TSF wrote:
As your clarified perspective is not denial but based on your estimation of probability, I agree that is acceptable logic in terms of scientific thinking. Incidentally, Galileo and Newton were very religious persons but disconnected from the church dogma. My perception of religion is belief in and connection with God. I regard dogma as the representation of laws and ordinances imposed upon others by church organizations for the purpose of protecting the organization and forcing the assimilation of membership. The remarkable thing about humans is the widespread belief in God, whether that God would be Budda, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus , etc. That tells me that billions of human persons feel a connection to a God, and that connection is what I regard as religion. That connection is what I think St Thomas Aquinas was talking about when he said believers need no explaination and that no explaination is possible for non believers. An example would be the story of non believer Paul on the road to Damascus
when he was blinded for three days by a flash of perception. Afterwards, no explaination was necessary to him. Its kind of like studying fruitlessly for days to understand a complex mathematical theorum and being on the verge of giving up continuing to try, when suddenly, you understand and realize that it was actually simple to begin with. I am not trying to change your mind about God. I am just relating to you kind of what to expect when/if it happens to you.
<quoted text>
The quality of your posts is undeniable.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#29843 Dec 6, 2012
sevenSecrets wrote:
<quoted text>
spelling is a part of grammar, please i was a honors student in literature.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_spelling_conside...
http://www.answers.com/topic/grammar

Grammar is the structure of a sentence. Words form the structure of the sentence. "Two" different actions that form a cohesive sentence. If you spell a word incorrectly, it can effect the structure of your sentence, thus "two" different meanings may occur or the sentence could make no sense at all. Take your pick. I bet in your honors math class, you didn't use "too" for the number "two"??

“physics is your friend”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#29844 Dec 6, 2012
sevenSecrets wrote:
<quoted text>exact point of my hatred towards religion.
My relationship with GOD has nothing to do with religion.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#29845 Dec 6, 2012
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Wiki states their were various reasons given, and experts postulate on them.
This is also from the site you posted.
..On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim..."[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_...
Some middle-east scholars like Michael Scott Doran and Peter Bergen have argued that 9/11 was a strategic way to provoke America into a war that incites a pan-Islamist revolution.
Michael Scott Doran argued that the attacks are best understood as being part of a religious conflict within the Muslim world. In an essay, Doran argued that Bin Laden's followers: "consider themselves an island of true believers surrounded by a sea of iniquity".[17] Doran further argued that bin Laden hoped U.S. retaliation would unite the faithful against the West, sparking revolutions in Arab nations and elsewhere; and that the Osama bin Laden videos were attempting to provoke a visceral reaction in the Middle East aimed at a violent reaction by Muslim citizens to increased U.S. involvement in their region.[18]
Correspondent Peter Bergen argued that the attacks were part of a plan to cause the United States to increase its military and cultural presence in the Middle East, thereby forcing Muslims to confront the idea of a non-Muslim government and establish conservative Islamic governments in the region.[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_...
As you likely know, wiki does not go to great depths on many things. Something this large is complex. To summarize it into a wiki page would leave out massive amounts of the story.
We only have so much to work with on Wiki and if that's the best we can do for this forum without pasting a dissertation, that's all we got. However, wiki did speak about the Blind Sheik and Bin Laden wanting his release. I always thought it was just payback because Bin Laden and the boys wanted him back to plan more attack.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#29846 Dec 6, 2012
TSF wrote:
As your clarified perspective is not denial but based on your estimation of probability, I agree that is acceptable logic in terms of scientific thinking. Incidentally, Galileo and Newton were very religious persons but disconnected from the church dogma. My perception of religion is belief in and connection with God. I regard dogma as the representation of laws and ordinances imposed upon others by church organizations for the purpose of protecting the organization and forcing the assimilation of membership. The remarkable thing about humans is the widespread belief in God, whether that God would be Budda, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus , etc. That tells me that billions of human persons feel a connection to a God, and that connection is what I regard as religion. That connection is what I think St Thomas Aquinas was talking about when he said believers need no explaination and that no explaination is possible for non believers. An example would be the story of non believer Paul on the road to Damascus
when he was blinded for three days by a flash of perception. Afterwards, no explaination was necessary to him. Its kind of like studying fruitlessly for days to understand a complex mathematical theorum and being on the verge of giving up continuing to try, when suddenly, you understand and realize that it was actually simple to begin with. I am not trying to change your mind about God. I am just relating to you kind of what to expect when/if it happens to you.
<quoted text>
TSF, not only are you good with numbers, but you rock on religion!!

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#29847 Dec 6, 2012
TSF wrote:
As your clarified perspective is not denial but based on your estimation of probability, I agree that is acceptable logic in terms of scientific thinking. Incidentally, Galileo and Newton were very religious persons but disconnected from the church dogma. My perception of religion is belief in and connection with God. I regard dogma as the representation of laws and ordinances imposed upon others by church organizations for the purpose of protecting the organization and forcing the assimilation of membership. The remarkable thing about humans is the widespread belief in God, whether that God would be Budda, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus , etc. That tells me that billions of human persons feel a connection to a God, and that connection is what I regard as religion. That connection is what I think St Thomas Aquinas was talking about when he said believers need no explaination and that no explaination is possible for non believers. An example would be the story of non believer Paul on the road to Damascus
when he was blinded for three days by a flash of perception. Afterwards, no explaination was necessary to him. Its kind of like studying fruitlessly for days to understand a complex mathematical theorum and being on the verge of giving up continuing to try, when suddenly, you understand and realize that it was actually simple to begin with. I am not trying to change your mind about God. I am just relating to you kind of what to expect when/if it happens to you.
<quoted text>
I feel you wish to put all blame on dogma, because to blame what you feel is religion, would be to indict yourself.
As you stated, religion is of ones perception. And that perception can be of a dogmatic state and often is. So trying to distance them seems disingenuous.

The large number of believers is not evidence of a god. It is only evidence to blind faith beliefs. And thinking one knows the answers as the blind faith believers often do, only shows an arrogance of knowledge with zero evidence for support. And that can be dangerous and counterproductive to progress and morality.

Galileo and Newton were Pre Darwin. They lived in times of little science compared to today. There were little or no answers to so many questions of origins in those times. I can understand why they would be believers in a god. They knew nothing of the big bang, nor evolution. So citing their faith does not mean much.

If you look at the stats on modern scientists and faith, you will see there is little faith there. We have just now come to an age of science that enough questions can be answered, that one feels no real need to look to superstition for causes.

If you look at the stats, you will see the more religious one is in America, the less likely he believes in evolution. Thus evidence of the conflict of science and religion.

One tends to believe what his parents believe and was ingrained into his mentality as a child. If you look at the stats, 80% of all people follow the religion of their parents. So this stat is evidence that it is not some supernatural reason one believes what he believes, it is a matter of culture. Religion is what is being passed on down the family line from the days of long ago, when science was little. Some will introspect that culture and if the evidence outweighs the traditional beliefs, he might turn from the faith.

Sadly, dogma tells one to not listen to this introspection. Some dogma says it is the devil speaking. Clearly this is just propaganda invented to keep followers. But clearly it works. So many refuse to introspect their beliefs. So many refuse to even look at the arguments of the faith. They feel as Aquinas said, and thus do not need to do so.
Thumper

Sparta, NC

#29848 Dec 6, 2012
Should this not be its own thread?

“Anasasis Xenophontis.”

Since: Dec 08

over there.

#29849 Dec 6, 2012
Makin bacon wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.answers.com/topic/grammar
Grammar is the structure of a sentence. Words form the structure of the sentence. "Two" different actions that form a cohesive sentence. If you spell a word incorrectly, it can effect the structure of your sentence, thus "two" different meanings may occur or the sentence could make no sense at all. Take your pick. I bet in your honors math class, you didn't use "too" for the number "two"??
Grammar is the structure of several different types of phrases, words, sentences, blah. spelling is the integral part of making sentences grammatically correct. you really are a republican, lets keep arguing about my mistake...its getting somewhere.

“Anasasis Xenophontis.”

Since: Dec 08

over there.

#29850 Dec 6, 2012
waco1909 wrote:
<quoted text> My relationship with GOD has nothing to do with religion.
and thats exactly my point again. religion corrupted the image of my God. i hate religion.
Blah

Los Angeles, CA

#29851 Dec 6, 2012
Thumper wrote:
Should this not be its own thread?
They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectual retards on this thread with nothing better to do with their tin can lives except cyber babble.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#29852 Dec 6, 2012
sevenSecrets wrote:
<quoted text>
and thats exactly my point again. religion corrupted the image of my God. i hate religion.
Can you tell me where you got an "image" of god from?

What is this image?

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#29853 Dec 6, 2012
Blah wrote:
<quoted text>They're a bunch of pseudo-intellectual retards on this thread with nothing better to do with their tin can lives except cyber babble.
Yet, you are here....to what, "enlighten" all on here with your wisdom? Give it a shot..there are some VERY smart people here, be careful, you might get it handed to ya.

“Anasasis Xenophontis.”

Since: Dec 08

over there.

#29854 Dec 6, 2012
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Can you tell me where you got an "image" of god from?
What is this image?
personal to me, but i formed it did form it personally. alot of personal discovery happened and i still dont know exactly what i believe. thats all i can tell ya cause that is really all i know. just some things happened in my life and it led to believe in a extra dimensional higher power.

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