GM to pay up to $200M to help end American Axle strike

[Union All The Way]

Seenitbefore wrote:

O geeez....The theory doesn't always reflect the reality. AGH.

You just may worry too much? Drink more beer. When times get tough or good, people still drink...lol

[Seenitbefore]

Yes I probably should. I've told my wife for years I really need to start drinking. It just defies all common sense to bury one's self in theory without reality checks.

And it amazes me the number of bigots running around. It's okay for "professionals" to make as much money as they can; The truth being (usually) they aren't just offered that kind of money, they (usually) negotiate over it; And/or they have agents/lawyers who do it for them.

And being so paranoid about socialism? Or communism? What do they really think the populous dictating the wages anyone else should be making is. And advocating corporations are better off financing the increased power of communist countries because the people in their own "free" country are making more than they should? That's what the market system they love so much is about. Just not for who they want it to be about. The duplicity just makes my head spin.

So while they're complaining about socialism and/or communism, they should thank themselves for supporting all the corporations that are strengthening the financial power of communist and/or socialist countries and weakening the economy of their own country for the sake of profit.

It'll turn around. It has before. The weak dollar will cause more foreign money to come in...is the theory. It'll just be painful until it does turn around. Been there done that.

[Chip]

Seenitbefore wrote:

Yes I probably should. I've told my wife for years I really need to start drinking. It just defies all common sense to bury one's self in theory without reality checks.
And it amazes me the number of bigots running around. It's okay for "professionals" to make as much money as they can; The truth being (usually) they aren't just offered that kind of money, they (usually) negotiate over it; And/or they have agents/lawyers who do it for them.
And being so paranoid about socialism? Or communism? What do they really think the populous dictating the wages anyone else should be making is. And advocating corporations are better off financing the increased power of communist countries because the people in their own "free" country are making more than they should? That's what the market system they love so much is about. Just not for who they want it to be about. The duplicity just makes my head spin.
So while they're complaining about socialism and/or communism, they should thank themselves for supporting all the corporations that are strengthening the financial power of communist and/or socialist countries and weakening the economy of their own country for the sake of profit.
It'll turn around. It has before. The weak dollar will cause more foreign money to come in...is the theory. It'll just be painful until it does turn around. Been there done that.

Its not just theory, its reality that history has proven to be correct.
You have no grasp of what communism or socialism is or does to an economy, your post make little sence in theory, reality or common sence. You are so wrong I don't know where to begin. Oh well, It just proves more and more that you lack the mental capacity to make any difference anyway.

[Seenitbefore]

Chip wrote:

<quoted text>
Its not just theory, its reality that history has proven to be correct.
You have no grasp of what communism or socialism is or does to an economy, your post make little sence in theory, reality or common sence. You are so wrong I don't know where to begin. Oh well, It just proves more and more that you lack the mental capacity to make any difference anyway.

What theory would that be Chip? Did I say A or THE theory? Or even name a specific theory?

If you're speaking of economics, do I really need to repost the Pulitizer Prize Winning Economist that said it's still more of a theory than a scientific fact. Or didn't you bother to read that one either.

More specifically just who's presentation of economic FACT are you talking about from the many that are out there?

[Union All The Way]

Chip wrote:

<quoted text>
Its not just theory, its reality that history has proven to be correct.
You have no grasp of what communism or socialism is or does to an economy, your post make little sence in theory, reality or common sence. You are so wrong I don't know where to begin. Oh well, It just proves more and more that you lack the mental capacity to make any difference anyway.

You are not a nice man. I have dubbed you "EVIL"
You should learn better people skills as you know no one here personally..do you? Try and have a nice weekend..even if it hurts. Pain is temporary.

[tbird19482]

Chip wrote:

<quoted text>
Just because there was no recall doesn't mean better quality. I don't know the specifics of domestic vs. foreign quality, but I think for you to make a valid argument you need more than just recall #'s, because a lot of vehicles have problems and there is no recalls on them. How about warranty claims in the first 30,000 miles, chronic problems, etc.

MR. UNAMERICAN AUTO CO.JUST take some time and GO to the J.D.Powers web site and you will get an education on who is the real Quality auto . and who has the really good advertizing co. its there and maybe if you would take time you would find out that most U.S,Based Co.'s out do THE #2 selling co in the world [ toyota ]in Quality and only CHRYSLER has any cars on the top ten J.D.Powers recall list/ and as for the service notices Toyota has 20 for the camery for 2007 / 16 for2008/ " BEST BUILT AUTO IN THE WOURLD " I don't even have to look this stuff up on the computer I can drive up behind A honda / toyota / you name it [ and AM cars too ] have worked in a stamping plant for over 38 years can tell what GOOD FIT and TRIM are and in the last 2 years toyota /honda / ECT, are in the same mind set the AM> CO's were in the 70's and if you would take time and look you would see the doors don't fit / the trunk lid is off [ out bourd dents ' you don't get them from other people's doors there from dirt on the die that made the part ] start looking and you will see the diff. in the Qual' and IF YOU CAN'T see it you are blind and then all you have to do is run your hand over the 1/4 panel and down the seams and you WILL feel the differance/ DON't think so ? next time you pull up behind a car start LOOKING and pay att. and you will start to see AND then maybe you will see that the A.M. CARS are as good as all the rest. And if you need a lesson on how to tell fit and trim let me KNOW I will be happy to show you how a trunk lid should fit, it should not be 1/4 inch at the top and 1/2 inch at the bottom [ at laest around west. New York, the toyotas are so out of wack I can not beleive people can't see how bad there put together.] All I am saying is LOOK and you WILL see the differance UNION or non union they all can screw up and put out junk they all do face it / all I am asking you union bashers to do is look at the AMERICAN cars [ FORD ? G.M.] and DRIVE them and once you do [ look at the fit and trim ] you will be amazed as I have said look at the J.D.POWERS list ONLY Chrysler had any AM. Name s on that list ] the AM> cars were on the top ten list for the BEST buys look it up it's there, IF you can take some of your time and give the American worker HIS chance to prove that we can build a car that is as GOOD as any you will see we are as good as any / thank you for your time .

[tbird19482]

Chip wrote:

<quoted text>
Its not just theory, its reality that history has proven to be correct.
You have no grasp of what communism or socialism is or does to an economy, your post make little sence in theory, reality or common sence. You are so wrong I don't know where to begin. Oh well, It just proves more and more that you lack the mental capacity to make any difference anyway.

Chip old buddy went over here to a local store and a man hith his 2008 camery was there talking to a guy on how much he loved his car , I just had to stop and as I looked at it I had to ask him " how much did you pay for a 2nd class auto " he said WHAT? I said well the 2 or 3 out board dents wern't put there by other cars there from the die that made that 1/4 panel, the trunk lid was 1/4 inch at the top and almost nothing at the bottom the door gaps were the same wide in one place and no gap in another . as I said the non AMERICAN auto co's think they have got it and the A.M. car co's will never get it back [ well remember is that not what the U.S. co's thought years ago ?] IF only the U.S. car buyer LOOKS and compairs they will see the U.S. CAR Co's are as good as anyone.JUST OPEN YOUR EYES and TEST drive an A.M .car. you may be impressed.

[JIMMYK]

tbird19482 wrote:

<quoted text> Chip old buddy went over here to a local store and a man hith his 2008 camery was there talking to a guy on how much he loved his car , I just had to stop and as I looked at it I had to ask him " how much did you pay for a 2nd class auto " he said WHAT? I said well the 2 or 3 out board dents wern't put there by other cars there from the die that made that 1/4 panel, the trunk lid was 1/4 inch at the top and almost nothing at the bottom the door gaps were the same wide in one place and no gap in another . as I said the non AMERICAN auto co's think they have got it and the A.M. car co's will never get it back [ well remember is that not what the U.S. co's thought years ago ?] IF only the U.S. car buyer LOOKS and compairs they will see the U.S. CAR Co's are as good as anyone.JUST OPEN YOUR EYES and TEST drive an A.M .car. you may be impressed.

Tbird could you please clarify you definition of an american car company? Would it be one that is owned by and american company like GM. Would it be one that manufactures vehicles in the US? Would it be one that Uses US made suppliers and parts? This a really blurred line. Since every GM AVEO is made in South Korea with foreign parts then imported to the US. American Manufactures assemble cars in Canada. I would really like to know the answer. Especially since the Toyota Tundra won an award for the highest US produced part content of any truck produced in the US. My point is there is not one car company that is all American.

[Chip]

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-...

Tbird: how come mercury is the only "domestic" auto manufacturer with a 4 star rating or better, according to JD power, which is where you told me to look.

[Chip]

Seenitbefore wrote:

<quoted text>
What theory would that be Chip? Did I say A or THE theory? Or even name a specific theory?
If you're speaking of economics, do I really need to repost the Pulitizer Prize Winning Economist that said it's still more of a theory than a scientific fact. Or didn't you bother to read that one either.
More specifically just who's presentation of economic FACT are you talking about from the many that are out there?

Look at the last sentence of your post that I was answering. I was refering to the law of demand and law of supply, they are not theory.

[Chip]

tbird19482 wrote:

<quoted text> Chip old buddy went over here to a local store and a man hith his 2008 camery was there talking to a guy on how much he loved his car , I just had to stop and as I looked at it I had to ask him " how much did you pay for a 2nd class auto " he said WHAT? I said well the 2 or 3 out board dents wern't put there by other cars there from the die that made that 1/4 panel, the trunk lid was 1/4 inch at the top and almost nothing at the bottom the door gaps were the same wide in one place and no gap in another . as I said the non AMERICAN auto co's think they have got it and the A.M. car co's will never get it back [ well remember is that not what the U.S. co's thought years ago ?] IF only the U.S. car buyer LOOKS and compairs they will see the U.S. CAR Co's are as good as anyone.JUST OPEN YOUR EYES and TEST drive an A.M .car. you may be impressed.

I drive a GMC. I have looked at foreign autos, not the Camry yet. I owned a used car lot while in college, I do know how to look at a car for imperfections, look at the paint, fenders bodylines, etc. Like I said I have not looked at the 07-newer Camry yet, but since you went ahead and went a little overboard saying there is a 1/4 inch gap difference on the trunk lid, which is highly doubtful, I am assuming that the rest of what you said is not completely true either. I am more curious if the guy sprayed mace at you and if so are you keeping track of those special moments, I would doubt this would have been your first time.

[JIMMYK]

Seenitbefore wrote:

<quoted text>
Not exactly true. Good theory that really isn't at work anymore. I've traveled extensively around this country. The number of cities, and towns, with the many number of cars on the many number of lots, both new and used, not including the number of cars being sold by private individuals; With so many of those used cars being sold and resold by dealerships...because they aren't moving off the lots, at auction, would seem to indicate there is a glut of supply over demand.
Drive down 131 North or South and look East, I think it's about 100th, and see all the vehicles in the lot at the dealer auction week after week after week. And there are so many more of those auctions week after week after week all around the country. Because these vehicles are being moved by dealers at these auctions continually does not make for an accurate reflection on actual demand. And what we are told continually is vehicles are moving is to why places like KBB and such "set" vehicle prices. It's a fuzzy demand quotient.
You are right about the theory of supply and demand. The facts don't always reflect the reality though.
IMO...of course.

WOW, how long did it take you to make yourself believe what you wrote.
First off the car auction on 131 is lease turn in location. So a good number of vehicles come from that. Second you need to get an idea of how large the demand actually is. Dealer auctions turn a very high percentage of the inventory close to 90% that in itself shows there is demand. If there was not sufficent demand they could never turn that amount of inventory. In many cases what you are seeing is a redistribution of inventory with in the industry. Different dealers market to different customers and in turn demand different types of vehicles. Lets say BMW dealer takes Chevy in on trade. They will take the vehicle in order to get the sale. But a BMW most likely is not going to remarket a used Chevy, It does not fit into there customer profile and the chance of selling that vehicle is low. In turn they take them to auto auction where they will be picked up by a dealer that is more likely to be able to sell that vehicle.

You have this idea that the vehicles arrive at the auction because dealers can not sell them. Yet dealers still maintain the same inventory of vehicles. How does that work? We can't sell any cars so we take them to auction and buy more cars we can't sell?

As for value guides such as KBB or NADA you will see that they do not set prices. They make estimates based on demand and current selling prices. Did you see what happened to used large SUV prices when gas prices went up? The demand shifted to more fuel efficent vehicles. Which in turn left the market with a surplus of large SUV's. The result the prices dropped.

Finally "the theory does not always reflect the reality?" I am sorry but yes it does. I am not saying it can not be manipulated, that is exactly what Harley Davidson did for years by controling the supply. The result was higher demand and prices due to lack of supply.

[Seenitbefore]

JIMMYK wrote:

<quoted text>
WOW, how long did it take you to make yourself believe what you wrote.
First off the car auction on 131 is lease turn in location. So a good number of vehicles come from that. Second you need to get an idea of how large the demand actually is. Dealer auctions turn a very high percentage of the inventory close to 90% that in itself shows there is demand. If there was not sufficent demand they could never turn that amount of inventory. In many cases what you are seeing is a redistribution of inventory with in the industry. Different dealers market to different customers and in turn demand different types of vehicles. Lets say BMW dealer takes Chevy in on trade. They will take the vehicle in order to get the sale. But a BMW most likely is not going to remarket a used Chevy, It does not fit into there customer profile and the chance of selling that vehicle is low. In turn they take them to auto auction where they will be picked up by a dealer that is more likely to be able to sell that vehicle.
You have this idea that the vehicles arrive at the auction because dealers can not sell them. Yet dealers still maintain the same inventory of vehicles. How does that work? We can't sell any cars so we take them to auction and buy more cars we can't sell?
As for value guides such as KBB or NADA you will see that they do not set prices. They make estimates based on demand and current selling prices. Did you see what happened to used large SUV prices when gas prices went up? The demand shifted to more fuel efficent vehicles. Which in turn left the market with a surplus of large SUV's. The result the prices dropped.
Finally "the theory does not always reflect the reality?" I am sorry but yes it does. I am not saying it can not be manipulated, that is exactly what Harley Davidson did for years by controling the supply. The result was higher demand and prices due to lack of supply.

Don't know if I've got enough room (to just "reply") so I'll try to keep it short. I know KBB and NADA don't "set" prices. They are however used as an "authoritative" guide that dealers and buyers do use. Not a price setter, correct.
Without those same words I was saying redistribution of inventory. Yes I know that trade ins are moved out most of the time and those go to auctions. Such as the one off 131.
And the dealer friends I have spoken to would disagree with you on the demand. Plus they do turn over inventory to appear that vehicles are selling. Yes they do.
The prices didn't drop that significantly to reflect a marked difference over "sale" prices.
And lets face it,(usually) a dealer is not going to drop the price below what they have in it if they can "auction" it off. And yes they will turn over inventory in hopes that maybe the different ones will sell. A vehicle on the lot for a long time is not a very good sales tool.

Anyway none of this really matters anyway. It's all going to do what it's going to do. Money doesn't talk, it screams.

[Seenitbefore]

Chip wrote:

<quoted text>
I drive a GMC. I have looked at foreign autos, not the Camry yet. I owned a used car lot while in college, I do know how to look at a car for imperfections, look at the paint, fenders bodylines, etc. Like I said I have not looked at the 07-newer Camry yet, but since you went ahead and went a little overboard saying there is a 1/4 inch gap difference on the trunk lid, which is highly doubtful, I am assuming that the rest of what you said is not completely true either. I am more curious if the guy sprayed mace at you and if so are you keeping track of those special moments, I would doubt this would have been your first time.

How can that be a reality? You haven't looked at the 07 Camry to know so he is going overboard and you therefore can assume the rest of what he said is not completely true either?

No offense there Chip but I sure hope some poor slup hasn't had you on their jury. Well there are no witnesses, there really isn't very good circumstantial evidence but he seems like the kind that could so he's guilty. Sends shivers up my spine.

[Seenitbefore]

Chip wrote:

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r atings/quality-ratings-by-bran d
Tbird: how come mercury is the only "domestic" auto manufacturer with a 4 star rating or better, according to JD power, which is where you told me to look.

Isn't JD Powers based on the first 90 days only? It's gotta be pretty bad not to last 90 days.

[tbird19482]

JIMMYK wrote:

<quoted text>
Tbird could you please clarify you definition of an american car company? Would it be one that is owned by and american company like GM. Would it be one that manufactures vehicles in the US? Would it be one that Uses US made suppliers and parts? This a really blurred line. Since every GM AVEO is made in South Korea with foreign parts then imported to the US. American Manufactures assemble cars in Canada. I would really like to know the answer. Especially since the Toyota Tundra won an award for the highest US produced part content of any truck produced in the US. My point is there is not one car company that is all American.

I was calling G.M./ Ford /Chry. the old Am. Co's yes toyota / honda and others have plants here now and put together their cars here with about the same amount of am. made parts as Ford /G.m. and the others'

[tbird19482]

Chip wrote:

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r atings/quality-ratings-by-bran d
Tbird: how come mercury is the only "domestic" auto manufacturer with a 4 star rating or better, according to JD power, which is where you told me to look.

Go back and look again /and also look at a site named safercar.gov . You will find every car made and their ratings and for ex. under Ford prod. you will find that the Mustang/ taurus / town car / crown vic / and grand marquis all had 5 star rating and a;ot more with 4 stars their all there so take a look thats [ www.safercar.gov ]

[THE WATHCHER]

HELL wouldn't settle any strike...if the Union workers don't like it get another job...your part of killing the US auto companies....why isn't the foriegn makers don't have uions here and build a good car...the unions keep bidding there working out the door...true the CEO of FD/GM/CRY also need to take a cut ....but till then Will keep my old muscle car in great shape cause when the BiG 3 go down, my Chevell SS (1970) will jump in value.

[Seenitbefore]

THE WATHCHER wrote:

HELL wouldn't settle any strike...if the Union workers don't like it get another job...your part of killing the US auto companies....why isn't the foriegn makers don't have uions here and build a good car...the unions keep bidding there working out the door...true the CEO of FD/GM/CRY also need to take a cut ....but till then Will keep my old muscle car in great shape cause when the BiG 3 go down, my Chevell SS (1970) will jump in value.

I'll say it again Wathcher, You will never find the compensation differential as vast in the foreign manufacturers as there is in the U.S. manufacturers. Not even the foreign stockholders believe that is a reasonable gap. Could it be that the foreign manufacturers are just sitting back waiting for the crash of the U.S. manufacturers caused by that.

And Toyota?(fingers in the shape of a cross) There will be no unionization of their U.S. facilities LIKE THERE IS in their Japan facilities. Who is educated enough to spell SUCKER.

I had a '69 Chevell SS 396 that I was repeatedly replacing valve springs in because at least one would snap on me every time I twisted it over 7,500 RPM.

[postal steve]

I hope the executives in the company have the decency to rename the company MEXICAN AXLE