Who's in Hell Now? Restauranteur Ordered to Pay Lesbian Chef $1.6 Million

Apr 1, 2014 Full story: EDGE 54

The owner of a small chain of Mexican restaurants learned an expensive lesson in tolerance when he was ordered by a New York appeals court to pay a lesbian chef $1.6 million for repeatedly saying at staff meetings that gay people were going to hell.

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“ WOOF ! ”

Since: Nov 12

Coolidge, AZ

#1 Apr 1, 2014
TWO locations is a "chain" ?!

And I'm glad she won her case. Now let's see if she can actually collect her judgment.
Wondering

Tyngsboro, MA

#2 Apr 1, 2014
In this case the restaurant owner was not protected by the 1st amendment. He was forcing his beliefs on others. That is not free exercise.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#3 Apr 1, 2014
Wondering wrote:
In this case the restaurant owner was not protected by the 1st amendment. He was forcing his beliefs on others. That is not free exercise.
I am about as pro gay rights as one can get. So when I agree with you I will be called a homophobe and will be subject to every one insulting me with the most vile of insults. It will be claimed that I want blacks called the N word. I will be told to go back in time and join the Nazi party. I will ask how I would like to be called names [by people calling me names].

While it is inappropriate to says gay people are going to hell in a staff meeting, if he is the owner of the business he can say what ever he wants to him employees and they are free to leave and find employment elsewhere.

I know that won't fly either. Gay people will say, we shouldn't have to find another job. If bigots don't like us the government should force them to not insult us, we have a right not to be insulted.

I commented to comrade peter1313 that when I went to a leather bar in SF one time with my gay cousin, as we sardined our way through the crowd guys would cop a feel and I asked if I should sue the owner for sexual harassment. I was told that if I didn't like how gay bar owners ran their businesses that I should stay out of them. He is exactly right of course, but he is inconsistent because if gays don't like how a bakery is run comrade peter 1313 says they should go to court and have the government make him change his business practices.

"Can't we all just get along?"

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#4 Apr 1, 2014
Fa-Foxy wrote:
TWO locations is a "chain" ?!
And I'm glad she won her case. Now let's see if she can actually collect her judgment.
How long do you think we will have to wait? Years? Decades?

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#5 Apr 1, 2014
Maybe the Lesbian should have quoted the Bible to her boss?

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all, specially of those that believe."

If Jesus is the savior of all, and if all means all, then ALL are going to heaven and there is no hell. I just love these silly stories.
Wondering

Tyngsboro, MA

#6 Apr 1, 2014
Reverend Alan wrote:
<quoted text>
I am about as pro gay rights as one can get. So when I agree with you I will be called a homophobe and will be subject to every one insulting me with the most vile of insults. It will be claimed that I want blacks called the N word. I will be told to go back in time and join the Nazi party. I will ask how I would like to be called names [by people calling me names].
While it is inappropriate to says gay people are going to hell in a staff meeting, if he is the owner of the business he can say what ever he wants to him employees and they are free to leave and find employment elsewhere.
I know that won't fly either. Gay people will say, we shouldn't have to find another job. If bigots don't like us the government should force them to not insult us, we have a right not to be insulted.
I commented to comrade peter1313 that when I went to a leather bar in SF one time with my gay cousin, as we sardined our way through the crowd guys would cop a feel and I asked if I should sue the owner for sexual harassment. I was told that if I didn't like how gay bar owners ran their businesses that I should stay out of them. He is exactly right of course, but he is inconsistent because if gays don't like how a bakery is run comrade peter 1313 says they should go to court and have the government make him change his business practices.
"Can't we all just get along?"
You make many excellent points. The problem here is that employees were forced to go to prayer meeting. Were they paid? The argument could be made that if a place required you to go to prayer meeting for fear of losing your job that the person should never have taken the job in the first place. If the person forced to attend prayer meeting was a non-believer then their religious freedom would be violated. I don't think a person/boss has the right to make people go to these meeting anymore than a baker should be forced to participate in a gay wedding. I absolutely agree with your last comment. It sounds simple but we know it's not.
Fundies R Mentally Nil

Philadelphia, PA

#7 Apr 1, 2014
Reverend Alan wrote:
<quoted text>
So when I agree with you I will be called a homophobe and will be subject to every one insulting me with the most vile of insults.
You're a serial, deliberate liar who also engages in name calling.

In light of that your complaints here indicate a serious disorder of some sort.

“ WOOF ! ”

Since: Nov 12

Coolidge, AZ

#8 Apr 1, 2014
Reverend Alan wrote:
<quoted text>
I am about as pro gay rights as one can get. So when I agree with you I will be called a homophobe and will be subject to every one insulting me with the most vile of insults. It will be claimed that I want blacks called the N word. I will be told to go back in time and join the Nazi party. I will ask how I would like to be called names [by people calling me names].
While it is inappropriate to says gay people are going to hell in a staff meeting, if he is the owner of the business he can say what ever he wants to him employees and they are free to leave and find employment elsewhere.
I know that won't fly either. Gay people will say, we shouldn't have to find another job. If bigots don't like us the government should force them to not insult us, we have a right not to be insulted.
I commented to comrade peter1313 that when I went to a leather bar in SF one time with my gay cousin, as we sardined our way through the crowd guys would cop a feel and I asked if I should sue the owner for sexual harassment. I was told that if I didn't like how gay bar owners ran their businesses that I should stay out of them. He is exactly right of course, but he is inconsistent because if gays don't like how a bakery is run comrade peter 1313 says they should go to court and have the government make him change his business practices.
"Can't we all just get along?"
In answer to your last question: no

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#9 Apr 1, 2014
Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
You make many excellent points. The problem here is that employees were forced to go to prayer meeting. Were they paid? The argument could be made that if a place required you to go to prayer meeting for fear of losing your job that the person should never have taken the job in the first place. If the person forced to attend prayer meeting was a non-believer then their religious freedom would be violated. I don't think a person/boss has the right to make people go to these meeting anymore than a baker should be forced to participate in a gay wedding. I absolutely agree with your last comment. It sounds simple but we know it's not.
People have a very difficult time seeing where their rights end and other people's begin. When the government gets involved and advances the cause of one group and it involved curtailing the rights of others to do it, problems arise. People get angry about being forced to do things they do not want to do. Too many people think,'well because it is no big deal in my mind, you shouldn't mind doing it," But that works both ways, let me quote comrade peter here, if you don't like how gay people run their businesses stay out of them!" And he can't see how that is what should be said about bakeries. So the petty bickering continues.
hi hi

Lancaster, PA

#10 Apr 1, 2014
Reverend Alan wrote:
<quoted text>
People have a very difficult time seeing where their rights end and other people's begin. When the government gets involved and advances the cause of one group and it involved curtailing the rights of others to do it, problems arise. People get angry about being forced to do things they do not want to do. Too many people think,'well because it is no big deal in my mind, you shouldn't mind doing it," But that works both ways, let me quote comrade peter here, if you don't like how gay people run their businesses stay out of them!" And he can't see how that is what should be said about bakeries. So the petty bickering continues.
Quick note; the problem may arise as follows, although I *DON'T* know; anyone can take or leave this:

You see Situation A and Situation B as exactly equal.

He may not because he feels one is morally or legally *correct* while the other is not.

Again, I have no idea; I'm simply guessing.

But it strikes me that such a viewpoint would account for what appears to be a glaring inconsistency.
hi hi

Lancaster, PA

#11 Apr 1, 2014
I mention it because it seems to me a reason for "never-ending" argument: One person sees two situations as comparable or identical; another person doesn't.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#12 Apr 1, 2014
Pretty good payoff. For $1.6 million they can tell me I'm going to hell all day long.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#13 Apr 1, 2014
Reverend Alan wrote:
<quoted text>
People have a very difficult time seeing where their rights end and other people's begin. When the government gets involved and advances the cause of one group and it involved curtailing the rights of others to do it, problems arise. People get angry about being forced to do things they do not want to do. Too many people think,'well because it is no big deal in my mind, you shouldn't mind doing it," But that works both ways, let me quote comrade peter here, if you don't like how gay people run their businesses stay out of them!" And he can't see how that is what should be said about bakeries. So the petty bickering continues.
You can go to Hell. There. See if you can collect a penny.
Wondering

Tyngsboro, MA

#14 Apr 1, 2014
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
Quick note; the problem may arise as follows, although I *DON'T* know; anyone can take or leave this:
You see Situation A and Situation B as exactly equal.
He may not because he feels one is morally or legally *correct* while the other is not.
Again, I have no idea; I'm simply guessing.
But it strikes me that such a viewpoint would account for what appears to be a glaring inconsistency.
A man or woman, for whatever reason, believes that homosexuality is immoral.
Do you think you can force these people to change their minds by suing them, boycotting them, whatever?

I'm not involved with any organized religion. I wouldn't work for the guy at the restaurant if he tried to force me to go to these prayer meetings. I'd tell him what he could do with his job. I wouldn't sue him.

If someone didn't want to make a cake for me just because I wanted it decorated in a way he objected to I'd say thanks anyway and find someone who would do it. Yellow Pages, let your fingers do the walking.
Fundies R Mentally Nil

Philadelphia, PA

#15 Apr 1, 2014
Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
A man or woman, for whatever reason, believes that homosexuality is immoral.
Do you think you can force these people to change their minds by suing them, boycotting them, whatever?
Hey cretin, they can be forced to obey the law and to not discriminate. Who cares about their corroded minds? You bigots have always been bigots, always will be, and are dying off from the population.

You're so fcking stupid and desperate in your homophobic musings and rationalizations. Real trash.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#16 Apr 1, 2014
Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
A man or woman, for whatever reason, believes that homosexuality is immoral.
Do you think you can force these people to change their minds by suing them, boycotting them, whatever?
I'm not involved with any organized religion. I wouldn't work for the guy at the restaurant if he tried to force me to go to these prayer meetings. I'd tell him what he could do with his job. I wouldn't sue him.
If someone didn't want to make a cake for me just because I wanted it decorated in a way he objected to I'd say thanks anyway and find someone who would do it. Yellow Pages, let your fingers do the walking.
Depends if it hurts them financially or not.

Hey, if I had a job and then they openly abused me with their religious views, yes, I would sue them. The only places that can openly espouse religious views and discriminate are private religious organizations. These differ from public businesses.

The baker openly refused to make a cake as a business open too the public. That's discrimination and against the law.
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

#17 Apr 1, 2014
Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
A man or woman, for whatever reason, believes that homosexuality is immoral.
Do you think you can force these people to change their minds by suing them, boycotting them, whatever?
I'm not involved with any organized religion. I wouldn't work for the guy at the restaurant if he tried to force me to go to these prayer meetings. I'd tell him what he could do with his job. I wouldn't sue him.
If someone didn't want to make a cake for me just because I wanted it decorated in a way he objected to I'd say thanks anyway and find someone who would do it. Yellow Pages, let your fingers do the walking.
The national average price for a wedding cake is $466.00; the highest upwards of $1,200.00
.
You betta hush and get baking; sugar

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#18 Apr 1, 2014
hi hi wrote:
I mention it because it seems to me a reason for "never-ending" argument: One person sees two situations as comparable or identical; another person doesn't.
For me the issue is force. Who is forced to do something and who is doing the forcing. Many liberals and conservatives see nothing wrong with using government power to bring about the kind of social change they each desire. Who ever is in charge makes all the rules for the wise men and the fools. Force is violence. And the two parties take turns.

This desire to have other people regulated [and punished] is caused by the belief in a bad idea – that elected officials have the right to run your life, because you’re supposedly not competent to do so yourself.

I seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.
I believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.Consequently, I defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world I seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.
Josh in New Orleans

Denver, CO

#19 Apr 1, 2014
Reverend Alan wrote:
<quoted text>
People have a very difficult time seeing where their rights end and other people's begin. When the government gets involved and advances the cause of one group and it involved curtailing the rights of others to do it, problems arise. People get angry about being forced to do things they do not want to do. Too many people think,'well because it is no big deal in my mind, you shouldn't mind doing it," But that works both ways, let me quote comrade peter here, if you don't like how gay people run their businesses stay out of them!" And he can't see how that is what should be said about bakeries. So the petty bickering continues.
I think you have a reasonable opinion, but it misses the mark. Employees have rights too, such as fair pay and a reasonably safe work environment. Both notions preclude allowing businesses to discriminate against their employees and in their hiring practices. Beyond that, it is also the law. The owner of the restaurant could have practiced his faith in a number of ways that did not infringe upon those rights. Simply put, he chose not to and in doing so created a hostile work environment. That appears especially true given his protestations against homosexuality in quasi-mandatory prayer meetings. Such a thing singles out people who are different religions, non-religious, or gay and promotes a culture of discrimination in the workplace. No matter how you look at it, that's not a good idea and I see no reason to question it's 1st Amendment implications. These kinds of matters of Free Speech were settled by SCOTUS many times over long ago.
About the baker, the judge in that case eludicated upon how they could have served the gay couple without compromising free speech- bake the damn wedding cake and don't put any writing or figurines on top and have a policy not to do so for anyone.

“THERE IS NO GOD”

Since: Feb 09

Northern California

#20 Apr 1, 2014
Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
A man or woman, for whatever reason, believes that homosexuality is immoral.
Do you think you can force these people to change their minds by suing them, boycotting them, whatever?
I'm not involved with any organized religion. I wouldn't work for the guy at the restaurant if he tried to force me to go to these prayer meetings. I'd tell him what he could do with his job. I wouldn't sue him.
If someone didn't want to make a cake for me just because I wanted it decorated in a way he objected to I'd say thanks anyway and find someone who would do it. Yellow Pages, let your fingers do the walking.
That all sounds every reasonable to me. And I think it is what normal people would do and should do. For me it is irrelevant what people think about homosexuality. If two men want to have sex with one another it is their business and not mine, or anyone elses.

For me the question is, do you have a right to force me to bake a cake? And if the answer is no, then it follows that you do not have a right to vote for people to act on your behalf and force me to bake you a cake.

If it is wrong for you to murder me, it is wrong for you to hire someone to murder me for you.

If it is wrong for you to force me to bake you a cake it is wrong for you to vote for someone to force me to do so.

Gays let themselves off the hook by voting for people to do the dirty work so they can say " am not forcing anyone, he went into business knowing what the rules were, I am still moral and I do not violate the rights of others". That of course is complete BS. Gays are guilty of forcing a man to bake a cake and there is no justification for it. But that will not stop them from saying really dishonest things like "it's the law."

Nothing magical happens when you go into business, you do not lose your rights despite what gay people believe and insist upon.

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